The Religion of Peace beheads a Priest in France

Cindy · July 26, 2016, 04:17:19 PM

"This is barbaric. How could they slaughter people in the name of religion just for having a different religion?

Let's slaughter people in the name of religion because they have a different religion in response."

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 26, 2016, 04:17:49 PM

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challengerX · July 26, 2016, 04:18:09 PM

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challengerX · July 26, 2016, 04:19:49 PM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 26, 2016, 04:20:20 PM

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Luciana · July 26, 2016, 04:22:05 PM

Quote from: E S O T E R IC on July 26, 2016, 04:17:49 PM

Quote from: Holo on July 26, 2016, 04:15:16 PM
So you guys are saying when ISIS is slaughtering people in their own countries, it doesn't matter and you don't care?

Doesn't that just prove my point?
I have as much right to meddle in the affairs of Islamic countries as Muslims have the right to meddle in ours.

That is, none.

Is it upsetting? Sometimes, depending on the victims. But it isn't our concern.

So you'd rather turn a blind eye if a crazy radical faction rises up and slaughters people by the thousands. Until they finally step out of their borders and get rowdy? It's not just one country either which I could understand. It's an entire region. That's akin to saying (and forgive my Godwins law here) you don't care what the Nazi's do with how they're killing their own people or doing what they do until they start slowly expanding to other places.

Luciana · July 26, 2016, 04:22:33 PM

Quote from: challengerX on July 26, 2016, 04:18:09 PM

Quote from: Holo on July 26, 2016, 04:17:02 PM
Quote from: challengerX on July 26, 2016, 04:12:50 PM
Sure there's kind of a double standard
Not some kind

it's completely double standard. You're not caring about people getting slaughtered until people of similar beliefs are getting hurt? Seems abhorrent. Isis is a cancer to humanity as a whole, not just the west.
Do Muslims in the Middle East care about our unique problems?

I couldn't tell you, nor am I really comparing them to us. I'm specifically asking what you're feeling.

Luciana · July 26, 2016, 04:23:14 PM

Quote from: challengerX on July 26, 2016, 04:19:49 PM

No, I don't fucking care that a group of barbaric savages slaughter each other all the time. When they fucking grow up and drop that poisonous religion I'll care, until then fuck off. They refuse to solve their own problems but they're happy to Americans and our allies spill our blood for them.

I would argue they're trying to fix their Isis problem right now far more than America is with bombings. They're the ones on the ground getting killed and actually uniting together (as unstable as it might be) to quell a common foe.

Of course they could do more, every single country against ISIS could if you ask me. But it's not like they're not trying.

Luciana · July 26, 2016, 04:28:24 PM

Genocide is genocide. Regional tribal conflicts are one thing, but ISIS is quite literally trying to purge everyone and everything back into the Dark Ages. Even if they WERE just self contained in the Middle East, they're destroying entire histories of civilizations that've helped humanity progress as a whole. Destroying ancient artifacts, burning books, purging people who think slightly different than they do, targeting their minority religion by the masses, slaughtering gays, throwing people off buildings.

If this was all just happening in a few nations in the Middle East, I'd still be worried and want something to be done. People turning a blind eye to those kinds of things is one of the reason the Holocaust happened in the first place, or the Rwandan genocide. Sorry to say this, and I know with Obama foreign policy has been a joke, but when you're one of the strongest nations in the world who were once the most dominant nation across the planet, with allies who have the advanced military personnel, you have an obligation to stop such cancers from rising in the world.

Even if it's not at your doorstep, you should want to do something. Be that actually rallying countries, increasing airstrikes, or even putting boots on the ground. Ignoring such things makes the world a worse off place.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 26, 2016, 04:29:00 PM

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Luciana · July 26, 2016, 04:30:58 PM

Quote from: E S O T E R IC on July 26, 2016, 04:29:00 PM

Nazis weren't killing their own people though, the whole point of Nazism was to empower them against other peoples.

There's one, and only one way to bring peace to the middle east, and even that might fail. You have to remove Islam, be it by converting the people to a more peaceful religious tradition, or turning them into degenerate coke-drinking American secularists. I don't think we have a right to force either of those things on them. I think the peoples of the middle east have a right to cultural and political self-determination, even if that means slaughtering each other. If they want peace, they have to make it themselves.

The most intervention I'd be inclined to support would be an attempt to protect or extract religious and ethnic minority groups from the violence.

I can understand Islam being a part of the issue. I won't be so blind as to say everything the religion teaches is innocent and all that crap you'd hear. But to think it's the only problem is ridiculous, especially since the region wasn't as turbulent in the late 20th century as it is now. The Middle East blow up is due to a number of things, brought on over the course of decades of build up. No one answer IS the answer for fixing that entire place. Simply getting rid of Islam won't fix it. Simply nuking them all won't fix it (I know that's not what you're saying).

The annoying and true fact, is that it won't be solved quick, it won't be solved with a few simple steps, and it won't be easy to fix it.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 26, 2016, 04:36:52 PM

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Luciana · July 26, 2016, 04:50:24 PM

I agree that meddling wouldn't help. It's proven to backfire time and time again. I do think ISIS is an amalgamation of all of this stuff (Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc) America has gotten its fingers in.

I suppose a frustration and true approach to this, is that letting the Middle East attack and defeat ISIS as the primary force, is the right thing to do. With western support. Some ME countries could be pulling their weight more. Something we've called them out on (or Obama has) before.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 26, 2016, 05:02:28 PM

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Korra · July 26, 2016, 05:24:08 PM

Quote from: Jono on July 26, 2016, 03:43:51 PM

Quote from: Kalusta on July 26, 2016, 03:41:56 PM
Quote from: Jono on July 26, 2016, 03:36:41 PM
Its true though and if you can't accept that then you're the one who has autism.

i don't disagree with anything you've said, i'm just asking you to carry yourself with a little less autism if at all possible
I don't have autism you autist

This is the Serious board.

challengerX · July 26, 2016, 05:24:16 PM

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challengerX · July 26, 2016, 05:34:55 PM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · July 26, 2016, 05:35:58 PM

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Ian · July 26, 2016, 05:40:02 PM

Actually, most Americans believed the war in Europe was their problem and didn't want to intervene until Japan attacked. We only gave the Allies financial and weapon support.

Ultimately the problem about not caring about the ME is the fact that it's a pointless effort that's a waste of our time. If you want ISIS defeated for good you would literally have to bomb the ever loving fuck out of that entire region with no regard for the splash damage to the innocents until nothing alive remains in that area. You can't kill an ideology like ISIS without exterminating everything associated with it, even if everything else is completely harmless.

Purging their own people, burning books, bombing historical artifacts, the people there were in constant conflict doing that shit long before ISIS even existed, what difference does it make now? This will never stop in that region, so why throw away our people's lives for others that are either indifferent our vehemently against us?

Quote from: Holo on July 26, 2016, 04:22:05 PM

So you'd rather turn a blind eye if a crazy radical faction rises up and slaughters people by the thousands. Until they finally step out of their borders and get rowdy? It's not just one country either which I could understand. It's an entire region. That's akin to saying (and forgive my Godwins law here) you don't care what the Nazi's do with how they're killing their own people or doing what they do until they start slowly expanding to other places.

Luciana · July 26, 2016, 06:00:58 PM

Quote from: E S O T E R IC on July 26, 2016, 05:02:28 PM

Quote from: Holo on July 26, 2016, 04:50:24 PM
I agree that meddling wouldn't help. It's proven to backfire time and time again. I do think ISIS is an amalgamation of all of this stuff (Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc) America has gotten its fingers in.

I suppose a frustration and true approach to this, is that letting the Middle East attack and defeat ISIS as the primary force, is the right thing to do. With western support. Some ME countries could be pulling their weight more. Something we've called them out on (or Obama has) before.
ISIS is a kind of Islamic reaction, a purist and devout sect rising up against the different powers that have been running the region. Which is why ISIS will not last long with or without intervention.

But I would go as far as saying no to any western support beyond what is necessary to ensure the security of minority groups in the new states that will spring up in the aftermath of the violence. Once ISIS is bombed into irrelevance, Western support will turn (as it is already designed to) into manipulation, and the proxy war will get even hotter. ISIS is effectively nothing more than a distraction from the real issues, a violent and bloody attempt to return to cultural virility that will ultimately fail.

Yeah it does seem we always try to fuck with things when the war is one. I'd say let them manage it however they want when all is said and done. Western powers have messed up that place enough.

Nascent Email · July 26, 2016, 06:27:34 PM

We should have just cloned the Assyrians and gave them the entire middle east. They'd keep the shitty Arab diaspora in line (by killing cities when they get uppity)

gats · July 27, 2016, 06:04:11 AM

Quote from: Ian on July 26, 2016, 05:40:02 PM

Ultimately the problem about not caring about the ME is the fact that it's a pointless effort that's a waste of our time. If you want ISIS defeated for good you would literally have to bomb the ever loving fuck out of that entire region with no regard for the splash damage to the innocents until nothing alive remains in that area. You can't kill an ideology like ISIS without exterminating everything associated with it, even if everything else is completely harmless.

Purging their own people, burning books, bombing historical artifacts, the people there were in constant conflict doing that shit long before ISIS even existed, what difference does it make now? This will never stop in that region, so why throw away our people's lives for others that are either indifferent our vehemently against us?

Do you even know about the history of the region before actually writing? Because this post seems like you know nothing of it.

Ian · July 27, 2016, 08:42:04 AM

If you're trying to imply the natives of that region weren't already is constant strife and turmoil for the past 70 years doing everything Luci mentioned before ISIS existed, you are incredibly wrong. No, they weren't doing it for a hundred years but 70 is pretty freakin close enough. Going over why it's the case is a waste at this point, but if you deny the fact that they've been like this since long before even yours and my father has been born, I got a bridge to sell you.

Quote from: gats on July 27, 2016, 06:04:11 AM

Do you even know about the history of the region before actually writing? Because this post seems like you know nothing of it.

More Than Mortal · July 27, 2016, 08:43:46 AM

Quote from: Kalusta on July 26, 2016, 02:56:43 PM

Islam is an abtsract concept incapable of physical action.

Nobody's claiming it is.

The point is that it's an effective motivator of undesirable actions for a large group of people.

More Than Mortal · July 27, 2016, 08:47:55 AM

Quote from: Azumarill on July 26, 2016, 04:05:19 PM

seems straightforward, the privilege of being a muslim is that you are at once blamed for and the primary victim of terrorism

Except this is just as bad as what it criticises.

You can't claim it's incorrect to say Muslims are responsible for terrorism and then also say Muslims are its victims. They're both just as guilty of puerile generalisation.

A Muslim in America, for the most part, will neither be blamed for nor be a victim of Islamic terrorism. Individuals are responsible, and individuals are victims. Trying to cast just "Muslims" as the victims of either is stupid.

More Than Mortal · July 27, 2016, 08:50:22 AM

Quote from: Cindy on July 26, 2016, 04:17:19 PM

"This is barbaric. How could they slaughter people in the name of religion just for having a different religion?

Let's slaughter people in the name of religion because they have a different religion in response."

LOL GUYS

ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL

gats · July 27, 2016, 09:21:33 AM

Quote from: Ian on July 27, 2016, 08:42:04 AM

If you're trying to imply the natives of that region weren't already is constant strife and turmoil for the past 70 years doing everything Luci mentioned before ISIS existed, you are incredibly wrong

Please state where? Syria and Iraq have been in multiple wars since their conceptions post the collapse of the Ottoman empire but those wars were political just the US in Vietnam, Britain in Falklands, the Balkans even war isn't limited to just the middle east.

Ian · July 27, 2016, 10:25:09 AM

Egypt? Palestine? ISIS is not the birth of the regions conflict, they've been in strife ever since the 50's.

Quote from: gats on July 27, 2016, 09:21:33 AM

Please state where? Syria and Iraq have been in multiple wars since their conceptions post the collapse of the Ottoman empire but those wars were political just the US in Vietnam, Britain in Falklands, the Balkans even war isn't limited to just the middle east.

gats · July 27, 2016, 10:56:06 AM

Quote from: Ian on July 27, 2016, 10:25:09 AM

Egypt? Palestine? ISIS is not the birth of the regions conflict, they've been in strife ever since the 50's.

Again political wars no different to the West.

MyNameIsCharlie · July 27, 2016, 11:03:27 AM

As much as I hate to say this, Islam IS the problem. Not in what is written (though there are some passages that raise eyebrows) but in how it's been interpreted from the start. Some follow strictly Mohammed. Others some family member (Sunni/Shia.) that alone has been enough for wholesale slaughter. While yes, Christianity has had its share, the conflict has been nowhere near what it's been in the ME.

I know that 99.999999% of the people just want to live their lives. The problem is that they also don't want to stand up for any peace in their lives either. This is weird coming from me, an atheist, but one massive thing Christianity has over Islam is that the ONLY way to heaven in Christianity is by having faith in Jesus. In Islam there are many other ways, including martyrdom. Dying for Allah is enough. It always has been. Erase your sins by dying in some spectacular manner.

I have no idea how this could be fixed. More war and killing isn't the answer. Spreading secularism also isn't, simply because we aren't willing to put up with the attacks from the fundamentalists until it takes root. It's a tough one.

Terraform Mars, let the Muslims name it and ship it there? I dunno