The Crusades were justified by the standards of the day.

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Luciana
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Wasn't the first Crusade a massive lie in that the Vatican basically lied about what was going on in the Holy City? They said the Muslims were basically slaughtering Christians and Jews, when in reality they were all living just fine together in the city?


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Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 01:16:13 AM by HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX


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Trying to say that either side was "justified" is pretty shit.

Whether or not an all-out war on Islamic lands was justified for Arabic population of Constantinople and Moorish population of Spain, I don't think "literally slaughtering the citizens of Jerusalem and then stacking their bodies into piles" is an entirely justified response.

Plus, the Venetians didn't sponsor so much of the Fourth Crusades out of some selfless desire to see the holy lands, again. Dondolo was a crafty bastard.


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Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:11:56 AM by HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX


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I don't think "literally slaughtering the citizens of Jerusalem and then stacking their bodies into piles" is an entirely justified response.
I doubt this was the plan going in.

Like I said, war at the time was brutal and these types of atrocities are committed by every faction.

A few cases of abuse by a force that was not tightly organized (the first crusade had no central leadership) are to be expected.

Looking at these conflicts entirely through the lens of modern morality is a little silly IMO.

But yeah, the fourth crusade was fucked, I'll give you that.
Eh, I'll give you that much.

Like I said, it's silly to see either side as fully justified. I doubt every single crusader was a heartless bastard out to slaughter arabs and jerk off over their dead bodies, but I also doubt every single one was a selfless pinnacle of morality that only wished to do good by his god.

That being said, they totally slaughtered a bunch of people hiding in a mosque. That shit's fucked, yo.


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Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:26:37 AM by HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
>systematically raped and slaughtered multiple Jewish communities as soon as they got to Germany that conveniently happened to be wealthy
>"muh faith"


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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
>systematically raped and slaughtered multiple Jewish communities as soon as they got to Germany that conveniently happened to be wealthy
>"muh faith"
What does killing Jews in Germany have to do with the Crusades? I don't get what you're referencing.

Of course, Jews have not traditionally fared well in Europe.
Rhineland Massacres. It was literally the first thing the Christian peasants did when the Pope called for a crusade.


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Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:04:22 AM by HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX


 
Luciana
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They had shit lives back then. Can you blame them when they leave their shit castle walls? Let em kill!


 
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The Crusades also destroyed the Eastern Romans, which annoys me.


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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
>systematically raped and slaughtered multiple Jewish communities as soon as they got to Germany that conveniently happened to be wealthy
>"muh faith"
What does killing Jews in Germany have to do with the Crusades? I don't get what you're referencing.

Of course, Jews have not traditionally fared well in Europe.
Rhineland Massacres. It was literally the first thing the Christian peasants did when the Pope called for a crusade.
Yep, that sounds pretty much exactly like something Medieval Europeans would do to religious minorities.

This shit seems like it had a weird way of happening every time something notable happened. Like Europeans just get all massacre-y when they're excited.

Should note this was mostly just Yuropeasants being retarded, not the Church (for fucking once). Rome condemned it, for what little that's worth.

This doesn't really have much to do with the crusade itself though, these dumbasses weren't even attacking the enemy.
Jews were considered just as much as enemies as the Muslims were, though. Anti Semitic values were rampant despite what the Catholic Church would have told you at the time.

It's a notable example of how the Crusades were never intended to be this glorious moral obligation of Christian values seeking to hound out the Islamic conquest of Europe. That was a secondary objective. The primary goal was the unification of the Catholic Church for the Pope. Serfs and peasants were in it for the money and women. Bishops were in it for the acquisition of power. It had very little, if anything, to do with liberating Europe from Islam, at least initially.


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Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:37:05 AM by HEAT SEEKING GHOST OF SEX


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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
I know this brah. The European peasants were not the brightest bunch. That doesn't change the fact that the purpose of the crusades were to return control of previously Christian lands to Christendom.
Again, secondary objective. The overall long term goal of Pope Urban was to unify Eastern and Western Christianity under his leadership. Liberating access to the Holy Land was ideal for him, but not necessary.
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This was the actual goal of the crusade.
The immediate goal perhaps. Certainly not the long range objective.
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Primary, actually.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_OSJIyW7q2MC&pg=PA103&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
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In 1054 the Church in the East and The West had separated. There was a theological issue involved. Did the Holy Spirit proceed from both The Father and The Son, or only from The Father?

The Crusades began in 1096 when Alexis I, emperor of the Eastern Empire in Constantinople requested help from Pope Urban II to come to his aid in the struggle against the Turks. The Pope hoped that if the crusaders aided the Eastern Church by defeating the Turks, the Church would be reunited under his leadership.
Oh so I guess it was secondary after all.

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There is only one Holy Catholic Church, brah, and it isn't the one led by a pope.
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. The Catholic Church was lead by Pope Urban during 1096 who wanted a unification of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches under his rule. Fending off Islamic armies to placate Alexis into unification was his end goal. Liberation would've been a nice afterthought to him, but it wasn't especially relevant to his cause.

Not entirely sure what revisionist history you've been looking into tbh.
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I have no doubt that the Pope intended these lands to be dominated by Catholicism- he did send a Catholic army. But to write it all off as some kind of catholic power grab is silly.
Because it was a Catholic power grab.
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lol. Think you've got it mixed up. Peasants were in it because the poor and stupid are extremely susceptible to violent religious movements. Same reason teenagers go Jihadi.
Oh right, so that's why they conveniently targeted wealthy Jews during their attempted religious 'liberation?'
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It was about liberating the Mediterranean from Islam, first and foremost. Later on was when things got really shady.
I'm not sure how many times I have to go over this. Islam was a concern to Emperor Alexis, not to Urban.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
It's a pretty stupid argument since the whole idea of the standards of a certain era are based on the big events of said era.


 
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Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 08:05:12 AM by spewky bewgie


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
The Islamic incursion had to be stopped.
The world would be a much better place if we could have saved Christian Byzantium.


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If I'm not here, I'm doing photography. Or I'm asleep. Or in lockdown. One of those three, anyway.

The current titlebar/avatar setup is just normal.
I don't think it's all protected under the veil of presentism.


DisturbedMind883 | Respected Posting Frenzy
 
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people can live thier lives however they want and other s should respect that in turn. Alot of religion and culture are intertwined so I guess the christain culture and alot of stressors forced them to do it.

just like stressors are forcing the radical people in the middle east with a "crusade"


 
Luciana
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The Islamic incursion had to be stopped.
The world would be a much better place if we could have saved Christian Byzantium.
Ironic that those very people are the ones that destroyed the Eastern Romans sooner and left them open to the Turks.


DisturbedMind883 | Respected Posting Frenzy
 
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The Islamic incursion had to be stopped.
The world would be a much better place if we could have saved Christian Byzantium.
Ironic that those very people are the ones that destroyed the Eastern Romans sooner and left them open to the Turks.

yea If the classic roman empire could survive for longer we would live in a more advanced society.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
The Islamic incursion had to be stopped.
The world would be a much better place if we could have saved Christian Byzantium.
Ironic that those very people are the ones that destroyed the Eastern Romans sooner and left them open to the Turks.
I blame the Bulgarians for that.


 
Luciana
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The Islamic incursion had to be stopped.
The world would be a much better place if we could have saved Christian Byzantium.
Ironic that those very people are the ones that destroyed the Eastern Romans sooner and left them open to the Turks.

yea If the classic roman empire could survive for longer we would live in a more advanced society.
Well the "Classic" Roman empire (as in the one everyone thinks about) was the Western one which fell in 476. The Eastern, or Byzantines, were really more Greek than anything and lost almost all traces of their original origins of the West. Still, to survive for over a thousand years is insane.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
If the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth survived we'd be living in a more advanced world
Nah.

If the Russians had lost to the Swedish Empire and Poland couldn't get on the rebound like it did, Yoorope would have seen peace for three hundred years.


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tfw know literally nothing about the Crusades


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
tfw know literally nothing about the Crusades
Don't feel bad. Most people don't.