Poll

Is consent always necessary?

It is always necessary.
8 (40%)
It is not always necessary.
12 (60%)

Total Members Voted: 20

SQS: Is consent always necessary?

 
Verbatim
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Simple Question Sunday.

Consent-based morality is very common in atheist communities--in general, it is not permissible to commit to an act that imposes on another, unless you have their consent. This seems logically sound on paper, but can you think of a scenario in which consent would not be needed at all, on behalf of some greater cause? Or is breach of consent always invariably immoral?

As always, you can change your vote if you so happen to change your mind.


 
Verbatim
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And yeah, I know it's not Sunday. I'm late.

Turkey kinda stole my thunder with his brain thread anyway.
Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 03:36:34 PM by Verbatim


MyNameIsCharlie | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Everything depends on the situation. Sexually? Always yes. Consent needed.

Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.


Winy | Legendary Invincible!
 
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Everything depends on the situation. Sexually? Always yes. Consent needed.

Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
Pretty much this.

EDIT: Wait, not really. I didn't think this through lol

I don't think doctors should always save someone's life. Sometimes, people want to voluntarily end their own life (Like if they have some horrendous terminal illness), and it's worse to put them through the suffering than prolong it just so you can say you kept them alive, "As long as you could."
Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 03:56:49 PM by Winy


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Everything depends on the situation. Sexually? Always yes. Consent needed.

Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
I support an individual's right to a DNR order.


 
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Verbatim
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Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
Can't say I agree.


Mordo | Mythic Invincible!
 
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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
No.

With this logic a murderer can simply proclaim he doesn't consent to being arrested.


Winy | Legendary Invincible!
 
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Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
Can't say I agree.
In any circumstance? Or in a certain situation?

Like, if somebody gets hit by a car, and I'm an EMT, I'm going to try to save them.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
Ridiculous. Medically is when consent is most important.

OT: Of course it is.


 
Sandtrap
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If your heart stops on an operating table while you're under you technically aren't going to have any say in what happens to you. Somebody is going to choose for you. Sometimes, people make choices for others for the overall long term benefit of somebody, even if they would have said no, otherwise.

So no. I don't think consent is always neccessary because there's situations where you can have no say in the matter, and situations where a choice can be made for you that nets you an overall better end result despite your lack of consent or even objection.

In most cases where consent can be given, yeah, it should be neccessary and always taken into consideration.

But is it morally "wrong" to make a choice for somebody when they're basically out for the count? No.

How about even if they object but it's for their own betterment and will help them in the long run? No, I don't think so either.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
No.

With this logic a murderer can simply proclaim he doesn't consent to being arrested.
When you break someone else's consent, you have the possibility of forfeiting yours, depending on what you did.


 
Verbatim
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In any circumstance? Or in a certain situation?

Like, if somebody gets hit by a car, and I'm an EMT, I'm going to try to save them.
Certain situations. If you wanna die, you wanna die--I think that should be respected.


Winy | Legendary Invincible!
 
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In any circumstance? Or in a certain situation?

Like, if somebody gets hit by a car, and I'm an EMT, I'm going to try to save them.
Certain situations. If you wanna die, you wanna die--I think that should be respected.
I agree with that when it comes to terminal illnesses and shit like that.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
I mean, if you're incapable of even speaking - if you're unconscious or something, it's obviously less black and white.

But if you're lucid and telling someone you don't consent to something, like a life-saving operation, then that's the final word. It's objectively and inherently wrong to defy that decision.


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emigrate or degenerate. the choice is yours
No.

With this logic a murderer can simply proclaim he doesn't consent to being arrested.
When you break someone else's consent, you have the possibility of forfeiting yours, depending on what you did.
But that's not what the OP specified. If I'm imposing an action on you for murdering someone then clearly I'm doing so without your consent.


 
Sandtrap
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I good example of breach of consent where the line blurs. Let's assume for a minute, that we label any breach of consent as morally wrong.

And let's say, that you have a best friend. This isn't just a friend, right? This is best friend. The two of you stick together like glue, the other comes running when you call, that sort of thing. And your best pal starts taking drugs. The heavy kind that will kill them. You know it's going to kill them because that's what happens. But they're too scared to quit due to the withdrawl they're going to face.

Would you be morally wrong to not point out that "Hey, if you keep this up you're going to kill yourself?"

This is based off my perspective, but when you're friends with somebody, and they're doing something stupid, you point it out to them. And if they're way in above their head, then you, as their best friend, should be obligated to pull them out. If you care so much about them and value them, then their feelings about what you might have to say on the matter become irrelevant because you're doing it to help them, not hurt them.

If I ever, for some reason, ended up taking heavy drugs that would kill me, I would expect the closest friend of mine to be there to slap my fucking shit up and wake me the fuck up, even if they had to chain me up and force me into withdrawl. I'd do the same for a friend, and I'd expect no less.

Would you call that morally wrong even if it breaches consent?

I wouldn't.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
I would.


 
Verbatim
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I definitely wouldn't.



I would.
This is going to be good.


Winy | Legendary Invincible!
 
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I would do everything I could to stop them.


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
Not much to say. If I make the personal choice to do drugs, no one has the right to stop me. You can try to talk me down from it or whatever, but you can't impose your will to force me to stop. That's extremely unethical.


 
Sandtrap
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I would.

Well, if I went to hell for helping to save somebody close to me, who watches my back as I watch theirs, then by all means I'd do it.

The funny thing about this, to me, is that you're going to argue that it would be wrong. When the irony here is, is that the world really doesn't give a shit if it's wrong. And nor do people. This is why I don't enjoy taking such a hardline stance on morals. Because they're so easily stepped over and broken. And the line can blur so god damn easy.

But, here's my question to you. If I'm morally wrong on a call like that, then what would you do, if anything, to stop me?

Let's assume that in five minutes, I'm going to go out and do that to somebody. And you have that knowledge. What do you do?
Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 04:18:31 PM by Deadtrap


 
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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
—Judge Aaron Satie
——Carmen
But, here's my question to you. If I'm morally wrong on a call like that, then what would you do, if anything, to stop me?

Let's assume that in five minutes, I'm going to go out and do that to somebody. And you have that knowledge. What do you do?
Um, nothing? I don't know where you live. If you were going to go out and murder someone, I couldn't do anything.


 
Sandtrap
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But, here's my question to you. If I'm morally wrong on a call like that, then what would you do, if anything, to stop me?

Let's assume that in five minutes, I'm going to go out and do that to somebody. And you have that knowledge. What do you do?
Um, nothing? I don't know where you live. If you were going to go out and murder someone, I couldn't do anything.

Then you'd be morally wrong for doing nothing.

Would you agree, that if you happened on somebody committing something morally wrong, that you'd be just as equally morally wrong for letting such a thing continue, if you had the abilitiy to stop it?

If you say yes, then you'd be morally wrong for letting me go out to do that to somebody. And you can't bring up the excuse of not knowing where I live, because you have an admin on this site who knows everybody's IP addresses.

You could then call the american police, and ask to be routed to the canadian police to report a crime in progress based off the IP address you have which pins the location I live in perfectly. I've actually done this before. It's not hard. There are actually several ways you could do something in a scenario like this were it a real thing.
Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 04:41:26 PM by Deadtrap


MyNameIsCharlie | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Everything depends on the situation. Sexually? Always yes. Consent needed.

Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
I support an individual's right to a DNR order.

A DNR is different. If an EMT found someone unconscious, and didn't have instructions, save the life


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
Everything depends on the situation. Sexually? Always yes. Consent needed.

Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
I support an individual's right to a DNR order.

A DNR is different. If an EMT found someone unconscious, and didn't have instructions, save the life
EMT's aren't  physicians.


MyNameIsCharlie | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Everything depends on the situation. Sexually? Always yes. Consent needed.

Medically? Not always. I believe physicians should always save the life, even if it means doing something they may not consent to.
I support an individual's right to a DNR order.

A DNR is different. If an EMT found someone unconscious, and didn't have instructions, save the life
EMT's aren't  physicians.

You know what I mean. Ok, then an ER doc.


 
Sandtrap
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Here's another example, two, actually, primarily for Class, if we're going to take a hardline stance on any breach of consent being morally wrong.

Take somebody who is suicidally depressed. It's a proven fact that somebody who is suicidally depressed enough to kill themselves has an altered state of mind that's not functioning correctly anymore, which overrides their survival instinct entirely.

You would probably argue that it would be morally wrong to stop somebody from committing suicide since its a breach of their consent, obviously. But what if their mind isn't functioning correctly anymore? What do you categorize that as, then? Letting somebody who is arguably sick give into that "disease" and altered state of mind doesn't seem right. Because their judgement is warped.

And secondly, if we're to take an absolute stance on this, let me show you how ridiculous this can go.

Right now I could say that I'm paying taxes against my consent because I don't want to pay taxes. I don't like paying taxes.

You yourself, could say, "Hey, I don't like my fucking job, I don't want to go, this is a breach of consent."

Let's go even further. How about in social situations? When you "force" yourself to be polite to somebody when you don't like them, couldn't that be called a breach of consent? Because you're being forced to keep what you really think about them in your head.

How about right now? I could say that you not agreeing with me would be a breach of my consent because I'd like you to agree with me but you're not.

So, in those four cases, suddenly there's a lot of evil people wandering around. But you'd be called crazy if you took it that far. If you took such a hardline stance on it. And it all still amounts to nothing.

So, I don't think a hardline stance works. You have to draw a line somewhere between when a breach of consent is warrented, and it isn't.

Otherwise it becomes fucking ridiculous.
Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 05:17:23 PM by Deadtrap


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I don't think parents act with the consent of their children, but with the intention of improving their well-being. I suppose any relationship that is analogous to the parent-child one would have similar implications.


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This question depends on how we evaluate pain and suffering. Some people view it as inherently bad while others will view it as something that is on a number line, and thus can be cancelled by positives.

From my usual nihilistic perspective there is no objective morality so the concept is null. But considering the concept's usefulness for a functioning society, consent can most certainly be broken. In fact, society is founded on a breaking of consent, considering we are forced into life, forced into maturity, and forced into a life that most certainly entails suffering.