Spoiler So, I read George Orwell's 1984 last week...

DAS B00T x2 · October 15, 2015, 06:02:39 PM

Quote from: Winy on October 15, 2015, 05:52:43 PM

and it's ultimately collected for the greater purpose of maintaining national security. I would take sacrificed privacy over terror attacks and day of the week, and think it's unbelievably selfish and irrational to suggest otherwise.

Too bad you're not getting any security out of it. If you were, 12 Colorado residents would still be alive. Two Chechnyan kids wouldn't have attacked a marathon. Dylann Roof would never have been on the news.

The NSA has stopped four potential threats and allowed countless others to happen. The only successes for government spying programs have been detaining citizens who attempt to leave America to fight in the middle east for terrorist organizations.

Winy · October 15, 2015, 07:01:06 PM

Quote from: DAS r00d d00d B00T on October 15, 2015, 06:02:39 PM

Quote from: Winy on October 15, 2015, 05:52:43 PM
and it's ultimately collected for the greater purpose of maintaining national security. I would take sacrificed privacy over terror attacks and day of the week, and think it's unbelievably selfish and irrational to suggest otherwise.
Too bad you're not getting any security out of it. If you were, 12 Colorado residents would still be alive. Two Chechnyan kids wouldn't have attacked a marathon. Dylann Roof would never have been on the news.

The NSA has stopped four potential threats and allowed countless others to happen. The only successes for government spying programs have been detaining citizens who attempt to leave America to fight in the middle east for terrorist organizations.

Who says they've only stopped four threats? And what were the four threats you say they've supposedly only been responsible for preventing?

Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:05:26 PM

Quote from: DAS r00d d00d B00T on October 15, 2015, 03:00:56 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 02:50:47 PM
Quote from: DAS r00d d00d B00T on October 15, 2015, 02:49:54 PM
Verb, in your hypothetical future where the government keeps surveillance on everything and everyone, is the state equally transparent to the people?
I don't see why not.
Threats to national security aside?

I mean, the government serves us. If we don't have the right to conduct surveillance on them like they do on us, the entire system is reversed and broken.

That's what I'm saying.

Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:08:06 PM

Quote from: Meta as Fuck on October 15, 2015, 05:20:18 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 11:28:49 AM
No one's patting Meta on the back. He provided the evidence--that doesn't deserve much of an applause.

I then responded to it, and no one's responded to that yet.
Thing is, it's not that irrational. Humans have, for most of their history, lived in circumstances where group selection, herd mentality, suspicion and domination of bad actors was the way of life. We function with an innate social facet and power structures; institutions designed by us to exert power are always going to change behaviour and emotional states precisely because it's conducive to not being punished.

We would adapt.

More Than Mortal · October 15, 2015, 07:09:03 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:08:06 PM

Quote from: Meta as Fuck on October 15, 2015, 05:20:18 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 11:28:49 AM
No one's patting Meta on the back. He provided the evidence--that doesn't deserve much of an applause.

I then responded to it, and no one's responded to that yet.
Thing is, it's not that irrational. Humans have, for most of their history, lived in circumstances where group selection, herd mentality, suspicion and domination of bad actors was the way of life. We function with an innate social facet and power structures; institutions designed by us to exert power are always going to change behaviour and emotional states precisely because it's conducive to not being punished.
We would adapt.

Come on, that's not a substantial response. Even if we would, it'd take a long time and a lot of significant suffering for people who would have the response we have reason to believe they would indeed have.

Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 07:10:12 PM

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Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 07:12:32 PM

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Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:22:48 PM

Quote from: Meta as Fuck on October 15, 2015, 07:09:03 PM

Come on, that's not a substantial response. Even if we would, it'd take a long time and a lot of significant suffering for people who would have the response we have reason to believe they would indeed have.

It's still irrational, inarguably, because the fact is that we're not living in a world where "group selection, herd mentality, suspicion and domination of bad actors was the way of life." We don't live there anymore, and why should we?

The fact is, I wouldn't care, so there is no rational reason anyone else should, assuming the surveillance is done perfectly and without human corruption.

Unless someone can try to argue to me that I'm the irrational one for not caring. Good luck.

Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:25:11 PM

Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:12:32 PM

Its quite ironic how you are so hard pressed about the lack of consent in birth but when people are born into this world you're prepared to disregard their consent entirely.

Except I've already conceded the utility of a consent-based private surveillance system, dumbass. It would be consensual outside of public places.

Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 07:26:06 PM

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Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:26:44 PM

Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:26:06 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:12:32 PM
Its quite ironic how you are so hard pressed about the lack of consent in birth but when people are born into this world you're prepared to disregard their consent entirely.
Except I've already conceded the utility of a consent-based private surveillance system, dumbass. It would be consensual outside of public places.
It should still be consensual in public places you fucking idiot.

No, it shouldn't. That's why they're public places.

Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 07:29:12 PM

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Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:29:58 PM

Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:29:12 PM

I'm really glad people like you are such a small minority and all the things you want will never actually happen. This world would be a shit hole.

It's people like you who deserve to have a camera on you at all times the most.

Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 07:31:16 PM

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Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:33:44 PM

Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:31:16 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:29:58 PM
Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:29:12 PM
I'm really glad people like you are such a small minority and all the things you want will never actually happen. This world would be a shit hole.
It's people like you who deserve to have a camera on you at all times the most.
Its people like you that should stop being a hypocrite and listen to their own philosophy about suicide.

I have no philosophy about suicide.

More Than Mortal · October 15, 2015, 07:34:47 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:22:48 PM

Unless someone can try to argue to me that I'm the irrational one for not caring. Good luck.

Not caring isn't irrational, per se. Thinking it can be done perfectly, however, is.

Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 07:36:12 PM

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Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:37:08 PM

Quote from: Meta as Fuck on October 15, 2015, 07:34:47 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:22:48 PM
Unless someone can try to argue to me that I'm the irrational one for not caring. Good luck.
Not caring isn't irrational, per se. Thinking it can be done perfectly, however, is.

I don't think I ever said it could be done perfectly. Just for the sake of argument, if it could, there would be no rational reason to worry.

Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:36:12 PM

You don't even have a good reason to not kill yourself

I can't advocate for the things I believe in if I'm dead.

Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 07:37:54 PM

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Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:39:11 PM

Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:37:54 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:37:08 PM
Quote from: Dr. Pavel on October 15, 2015, 07:36:12 PM
You don't even have a good reason to not kill yourself
I can't advocate for the things I believe in if I'm dead.
Yeah but the things you believe in are retarded and no one actually cares.

Still not a reason to kill myself. Get mad.

More Than Mortal · October 15, 2015, 07:39:47 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:37:08 PM

if it could, there would be no rational reason to worry.

Sure, but this is rather irrelevant to the question of practical applicability. Saying if it could be done perfectly there'd be no reason to worry is begging the question.

Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:48:37 PM

Quote from: Meta as Fuck on October 15, 2015, 07:39:47 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:37:08 PM
if it could, there would be no rational reason to worry.
Sure, but this is rather irrelevant to the question of practical applicability. Saying if it could be done perfectly there'd be no reason to worry is begging the question.

The question hasn't been about practical applicability for at least five or six pages now.

More Than Mortal · October 15, 2015, 07:55:09 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:48:37 PM

Quote from: Meta as Fuck on October 15, 2015, 07:39:47 PM
Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 07:37:08 PM
if it could, there would be no rational reason to worry.
Sure, but this is rather irrelevant to the question of practical applicability. Saying if it could be done perfectly there'd be no reason to worry is begging the question.
The question hasn't been about practical applicability for at least five or six pages now.

I haven't been paying that much attention.

Verbatim · October 15, 2015, 07:56:49 PM

I think the thread has served its purpose by now anyway.

Dr. Pavel · October 15, 2015, 08:01:18 PM

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CIS · October 15, 2015, 09:49:00 PM

It's shit like this that makes me keep coming back here. The sheer amount of salt ITT is just golden.

Sandtrap · October 16, 2015, 02:33:23 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 14, 2015, 07:57:36 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on October 14, 2015, 07:53:03 PM
fuck off with your totalitarian police state bullshit
I'm sorry that you can't own a lobster.

Just pointing out. You sure didn't make much of an argument based on the area around gay relationships. And your other point of changing a law.

You think everybody has the time to devote themselves to that?

"Changing a law" sounds fine and dandy on paper. But I'm sure you're aware of how much bureaucratic bullshit and fucking red tape there is in our society. As a standard civilian, most people can't do shit. You need to have the money and power sway to get things done.

Lemme give you a recent example here Verb. When you come across injured wildlife, in my province, it is illegal to interfere with it. You can't bring it to a vetrenarian because they legally can't treat the animal. And neither can you. I found a goose that had part of its wing blown apart from buckshot.

And I brought it to my sisters farm, where they're taking care of it and trying to get it to fly before the snow shows up. I could be arrested for that. Along with my sister and everybody else involved.

So, that's a stupid law, frankly. But do you really think that I'd be able to just, "change it?"

Fuck no. I don't have the education, money, or political influence for that shit. And I live among a population of people who would likely oppose the law change.

So, simply put, Verb, it's easier to not play the rigged game. Because that's what our system is.

And I'm damn well sure that you know it's not just a simple "change a law you don't like." Come on now.

Cadenza has moved on · October 16, 2015, 03:11:07 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on October 15, 2015, 06:21:48 AM

Quote from: Cadenza on October 15, 2015, 01:46:46 AM
However they goddamn well please since they're the ones in control of the system meant to stop them; did you really just ask how a human being could possibly commit a crime?
...Criminals are in control of the system? Uhhh, okay. Meanwhile, in reality...

Wait, do you actually think it's impossible for government officials to be traitors? Are you actually saying that there is not a single government in the world that is not in even slightly corrupt? Are you honestly telling me that you do not see how a spying system could ever be used for purposes other than stopping crime?
I can't tell if you're uninformed or simply naive.

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If they didn't give a fuck then they wouldn't be spying on me, yet I haven't committed a crime. Why are they spying on me, and doing so with taxpayers money?
To deter you from committing crimes.

God, you really are an idiot.

Are you dense? The very existence of the police force, the defense, force, and the legal system; as well as their presence in the country's culture, and the moral character that is meant to be instilled in everyone raised in such a society, THAT, is your deterrence.

Now answer the goddamn question, WHY IS TAXPAYER MONEY BEING SPENT TO SPY ON INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NOTHING TO WARRANT BEING SPIED ON?

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"RIGOROUS MATHEMATICALLY LOGICAL PERSPECTIVE"

I have never once claimed on this site, or anyone else on the internet, that my opinions have mathematical rigor; what I have claimed is that I structure my arguments in a logically valid way, instead of making huge assumptions and arguing from something I can't prove. All you've done is shown a lack of reading comprehension, real fucking intelligent there.

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Furthermore I quite enjoy being able to isolate myself from every other human every now and then, I do not appreciate that being taken away from me.
It wouldn't be taken away from you.

BUT WHAT IF I'M COMMITTING A CRIME? HOW WILL THE GOVERNMENT BE ABLE TO TRUST THAT I WONT DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL WHEN THEY'RE NOT WATCHING? CLEARLY A QUIET WALK IN A PARK IS JUST CODE FOR MAKING A BOMB AND PLANNING A TERRORIST PLOT.

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]Exactly, I am legally innocent until proven guilty, yet the act of spying on me says that I am guilty indefinitely despite having done NOTHING AT ALL.
...No. It doesn't say that at all, Mr. Rigorous Mathematically Logical Perspective.

They're just keeping an eye on you in case you DO commit a crime. Fucktard.

And they would only be justified in doing so if they already considered me guilty and were simply gathering evidence, but simply being alive and a citizen of a country is not a reasonable cause for suspicion.

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Gladly, provided I could trust the people who programmed them.
Then there is no problem, you crazy insane paranoid fuck.

No, it simply changes the problem from "Can I trust the people spying on me" to "Can I trust the people who built the machine that spies on me" However that second question is far easier for me to say yes to than the first one is.

Sandtrap · October 16, 2015, 03:24:26 AM

I mean, I'm honestly surprised that you'd just go with that Verb.

Stupid law? Just *up* and "change it?"

Do you even know how much it takes to change a law? How much red tape and shit you have to go through? How much opposition, paper work, and just utter shit you have to go through? Sometimes, only to be denied, over and over again.

What you advocate for, Verb, by saying that, is playing the game. Taking part, in a system that doesn't give a shit about you and only stands to be more of a problem than a benefit. And it's so fucking clogged up and broken that you can't fix it anyway if you tried because the very base foundation is fucked.

I would rather break a law that I deem stupid and pointless, and take the responsibility of my actions upon myself if something bad came of it, then even try to jump into that rigged fucking board game that people consider as "democracy" or voting or whatever the fuck they'd do to pass a new bill.

Okay. Here's another good one. Because, holy fuck that statement pisses me off. Seriously. That't you'd advocate for that shit baffles me.

Canadian law here.

Somebody breaks into your house to assault you. You defend yourself, and hurt the attacker in any way? You face charges. Maybe even potential jailtime. You, legally, have to wait on the police.

So tell me, Verb, if you were in my shoes, with a law like that existing, and one day, somebody broke into your house with the intent to assault you, what would you do?

If you don't say you'd defend yourself, you're out of your god damn mind. And I'd like to see you change a law like that. You could literally, spend your fucking life away, trying to change that one law alone.

So, no. FUCK NO. Fuck that rigged shit. Seriously. That's dumb Verb. I can't even really believe that you'd go for that, or even say that when you know damn well how much of a fucked piece of shit system we have. And I'm not speaking canadian law here either. That applies to everybody.

Verbatim · October 16, 2015, 03:35:07 AM

You're overreacting over a simple statement, Sandtrap. And you're bringing up incredibly easy, cheap examples.

In general, laws are only designed to protect us. Just because you disagree with a law doesn't give you the right to break it.

I can't blame you if you do, but if you do, you can expect to be punished.

Sorry if that upsets you, but it's the truth.