Chances are a male civilian or inmate is going to be stronger than the female officer or guard. For the officer you're not always going to be able to reach down on your belt to safe you. If that's the case you're going to have to fight the person hand and hand to overpower them or simply defend yourself. With the female officer that might be harder due to males usually being stronger. It's the same thing with prison guards but worse. Unlike cops you don't have a gun, paper spray or anything else to use to protect yourself. You're going to have to defend yourself while backup comes and helps you out. Even in female prisons it makes sense to have all male guards simply because they would be able to control and overpower the inmates easier. 

I can imagine some male guards would use this to their advantage

That's the problem I see with them as well. There are cases in women prisons where that shit happens. The best thing I can think of is trying to have a better system setup watching the guards and have a tighter control over them about that.

I find it ironic that most would claim the role of police shouldn't be as aggressive enforcers, and then we have debates like this.

Yes, women should absolutely be officers and guards. Just look at all the fatass cops out there; do you seriously believe that Paul Blart is more effective than some motivated woman just because he's got a Y in his genome?

I believe women should be held to the exact same, physical standard as men. No dumbed down, separate requirements, exactly the same.. If they pass and show the motivating and necessary skill, they can do anything. That is equality. One, single, same standard for both genders.

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 27, 2015, 07:08:46 PM

I've a question here.

When there's a riot in a prison, and there's three guys, or three woman, security guards, holding off a door with their bodies to keep it shut and the entire hallway outside has people pusing on the door to break it down.

Do you honestly think the strength of any sex would matter at that point?

Usually, prisons operate on an advantage point system. The inmates are separated into small groups. Small enough groups that generally, security can deal with them quickly and effectively. The key is always separation. And usually, nowadays, incidents where officers are hurt or killed come from riots.

Now then. People seem to think that physical strength is everything in a fight. And they're absolutely wrong.

Physical strength plays a role. But people seem to forget that no matter how strong somebody is, their weak points are generally the same. And generally, those weak points don't require much force to hurt.

You guys ever charlie horse your leg or your arm? That's a nerve. Practically tap that and anybody, even a six foot prison giant will feel that. Smash your two hands into somebody's ears and you can blow out their eardrums. Hit the neck. The plexes.

I believe there should be a general fitness standard for all security guards, men or women. And proper training of course.

The simple fact here guys, is that if a woman who is shorter than you, who is physically less stronger than you, grabbed your balls and twisted, it wouldn't matter if you were stronger than her physically.

You could hit her harder than she could hit you. And she may only be able to take less punishment than you. But if she knew your weak spots and exploited them, she wouldn't have to hit harder.

But officers are generally, given equipment to even the odds so that they don't have to get into hand to hand combat.

And usually, when hand to hand combat is involved, it's an officer getting jumped by more than one person. At that point, no matter how strong you are if you're jumped from behind by three people, you're generally fucked anyway.

So yes. Women should be allowed if that's their thing.

A man still gets more respect and can pull off hitting those key points easier. Ever seen how women guards are treated when they walk past the cells?

Give me a break. Are you serious? A man can hit those key points easier? What the fuck is that trash. A neck is a neck. Plexes are fucking plexes. Knees are knees.

If you train a woman exactly the same as a man then they can do the exact same amount of damage. For example. I had an older highschool friend. She was at least two grades above me. I was taller than her, arguably stronger. She knew martial arts and we talked about it a bit. I was curious.

So, one day she told me to move as if I was seriously going to hit her. She was shorter than me.

My legs were the first to go to put me down on my knees and one of my arms was bent at a sharp angle, and pinned behind my back. I couldn't do anything.

Now, in terms of respect, in prison, respect means nothing. Not for a security guard. Convicts will have no respect for a man or woman if they're a security guard. And if a man had some level of authority or status, it would make him a bigger target as a guard.

Bottom line is, if you're a guard you're going to get treated like shit.

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 27, 2015, 07:36:05 PM

Quote from: challengerX on March 27, 2015, 07:20:54 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 27, 2015, 07:08:46 PM

I've a question here.

When there's a riot in a prison, and there's three guys, or three woman, security guards, holding off a door with their bodies to keep it shut and the entire hallway outside has people pusing on the door to break it down.

Do you honestly think the strength of any sex would matter at that point?

Usually, prisons operate on an advantage point system. The inmates are separated into small groups. Small enough groups that generally, security can deal with them quickly and effectively. The key is always separation. And usually, nowadays, incidents where officers are hurt or killed come from riots.

Now then. People seem to think that physical strength is everything in a fight. And they're absolutely wrong.

Physical strength plays a role. But people seem to forget that no matter how strong somebody is, their weak points are generally the same. And generally, those weak points don't require much force to hurt.

You guys ever charlie horse your leg or your arm? That's a nerve. Practically tap that and anybody, even a six foot prison giant will feel that. Smash your two hands into somebody's ears and you can blow out their eardrums. Hit the neck. The plexes.

I believe there should be a general fitness standard for all security guards, men or women. And proper training of course.

The simple fact here guys, is that if a woman who is shorter than you, who is physically less stronger than you, grabbed your balls and twisted, it wouldn't matter if you were stronger than her physically.

You could hit her harder than she could hit you. And she may only be able to take less punishment than you. But if she knew your weak spots and exploited them, she wouldn't have to hit harder.

But officers are generally, given equipment to even the odds so that they don't have to get into hand to hand combat.

And usually, when hand to hand combat is involved, it's an officer getting jumped by more than one person. At that point, no matter how strong you are if you're jumped from behind by three people, you're generally fucked anyway.

So yes. Women should be allowed if that's their thing.

A man still gets more respect and can pull off hitting those key points easier. Ever seen how women guards are treated when they walk past the cells?

Give me a break. Are you serious? A man can hit those key points easier? What the fuck is that trash. A neck is a neck. Plexes are fucking plexes. Knees are knees.

If you train a woman exactly the same as a man then they can do the exact same amount of damage. For example. I had an older highschool friend. She was at least two grades above me. I was taller than her, arguably stronger. She knew martial arts and we talked about it a bit. I was curious.

So, one day she told me to move as if I was seriously going to hit her. She was shorter than me.

My legs were the first to go to put me down on my knees and one of my arms was bent at a sharp angle, and pinned behind my back. I couldn't do anything.

Now, in terms of respect, in prison, respect means nothing. Not for a security guard. Convicts will have no respect for a man or woman if they're a security guard. And if a man had some level of authority or status, it would make him a bigger target as a guard.

Bottom line is, if you're a guard you're going to get treated like shit.

Anecdotal evidence isn't gonna cut it.

Male guards are viewed differently than female guards and they can respond to a situation with more force and authority.

Well I guess it's a good thing there's a mix of guards then.

And anecdotal evidence right? The fact is chally, there is no difference when it comes to a man and a woman for key body parts and weakness to exploit. And not all guys are built the same.

A tall guy has the advantage of reach with his arms. A short guy has the advantage of being a smaller target and going under the reach of a tall guy's arms to do damage to his legs.

This isn't anectdoatal bullshit challenger this is actual real life, body physics. I have a friend, in his 60's, who knows martial arts. I had that highschool friend of mine, who knew martial arts. I worked on a house for a woman who was a security guard for one of the city prisons out here.

She didn't know martial arts but one look at her and you know she could wipe the floor with any guy in this town.

And fuck, if all else fails, keep things simple.

Men guard men, women guard women. Cause we all forgot about prisons for women didn't we?

Regardless, of everything, denying real world body physics and believing that a woman couldn't put you in the hospital as easily as a guy could is just foolish. Like I said.

If you get hit in the plexes, you feel it. Get your ears smashed, you feel it. Get somebody gouging your eyes out, you feel it. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman, short or tall. Strong, or not as strong.

Um, yeah sure why not. If they can prove themselves mentally and physically I don't see the problem. I'm 99% sure there are Ronda Rousey bitches out there that would absolutely destroy the majority of men under specific circumstances.

You're really beginning to teeter on the lines of misogyny here, and this is coming from one of the most prominent critics of feminism and SJW's there is.

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 27, 2015, 07:51:30 PM

Quote from: challengerX on March 27, 2015, 07:38:49 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 27, 2015, 07:36:05 PM

Quote from: challengerX on March 27, 2015, 07:20:54 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 27, 2015, 07:08:46 PM

I've a question here.

When there's a riot in a prison, and there's three guys, or three woman, security guards, holding off a door with their bodies to keep it shut and the entire hallway outside has people pusing on the door to break it down.

Do you honestly think the strength of any sex would matter at that point?

Usually, prisons operate on an advantage point system. The inmates are separated into small groups. Small enough groups that generally, security can deal with them quickly and effectively. The key is always separation. And usually, nowadays, incidents where officers are hurt or killed come from riots.

Now then. People seem to think that physical strength is everything in a fight. And they're absolutely wrong.

Physical strength plays a role. But people seem to forget that no matter how strong somebody is, their weak points are generally the same. And generally, those weak points don't require much force to hurt.

You guys ever charlie horse your leg or your arm? That's a nerve. Practically tap that and anybody, even a six foot prison giant will feel that. Smash your two hands into somebody's ears and you can blow out their eardrums. Hit the neck. The plexes.

I believe there should be a general fitness standard for all security guards, men or women. And proper training of course.

The simple fact here guys, is that if a woman who is shorter than you, who is physically less stronger than you, grabbed your balls and twisted, it wouldn't matter if you were stronger than her physically.

You could hit her harder than she could hit you. And she may only be able to take less punishment than you. But if she knew your weak spots and exploited them, she wouldn't have to hit harder.

But officers are generally, given equipment to even the odds so that they don't have to get into hand to hand combat.

And usually, when hand to hand combat is involved, it's an officer getting jumped by more than one person. At that point, no matter how strong you are if you're jumped from behind by three people, you're generally fucked anyway.

So yes. Women should be allowed if that's their thing.

A man still gets more respect and can pull off hitting those key points easier. Ever seen how women guards are treated when they walk past the cells?

Give me a break. Are you serious? A man can hit those key points easier? What the fuck is that trash. A neck is a neck. Plexes are fucking plexes. Knees are knees.

If you train a woman exactly the same as a man then they can do the exact same amount of damage. For example. I had an older highschool friend. She was at least two grades above me. I was taller than her, arguably stronger. She knew martial arts and we talked about it a bit. I was curious.

So, one day she told me to move as if I was seriously going to hit her. She was shorter than me.

My legs were the first to go to put me down on my knees and one of my arms was bent at a sharp angle, and pinned behind my back. I couldn't do anything.

Now, in terms of respect, in prison, respect means nothing. Not for a security guard. Convicts will have no respect for a man or woman if they're a security guard. And if a man had some level of authority or status, it would make him a bigger target as a guard.

Bottom line is, if you're a guard you're going to get treated like shit.

Anecdotal evidence isn't gonna cut it.

Male guards are viewed differently than female guards and they can respond to a situation with more force and authority.

Well I guess it's a good thing there's a mix of guards then.

That isn't a good thing at all, though.

Quote

And anecdotal evidence right? The fact is chally, there is no difference when it comes to a man and a woman for key body parts and weakness to exploit. And not all guys are built the same.

That's why only men built the right way can be guard. This pretty simple stuff bro.

Quote

A tall guy has the advantage of reach with his arms. A short guy has the advantage of being a smaller target and going under the reach of a tall guy's arms to do damage to his legs.

When you're being rushed all that kung fu bullshit flies out the window. Unless youve been training since you were extremely young you won't remember it when you're in a situation like that. Fact.

Quote

This isn't anectdoatal bullshit challenger this is actual real life, body physics.

It's anecdotal evidence and saying "not all men are built the same" as if we should hire weak 5"2 dudes to be guards.

I don't appreciate the condescending attitude. I've been in a hell of a lot more fights than you have and I've heard and seen a lot of this shit. Women should not be guards in male prisons at all. They can't cut it.

Quote

I have a friend, in his 60's, who knows martial arts. I had that highschool friend of mine, who knew martial arts. I worked on a house for a woman who was a security guard for one of the city prisons out here.

Great. This is what's called anecdotal evidence. Which means you're using something small and applying it to something big to try and make your point.

Quote

She didn't know martial arts but one look at her and you know she could wipe the floor with any guy in this town.

I'm sure.

Quote

And fuck, if all else fails, keep things simple.

Men guard men, women guard women. Cause we all forgot about prisons for women didn't we?

I didn't at all. I'm saying only men should be guards.

Quote

Regardless, of everything, denying real world body physics and believing that a woman couldn't put you in the hospital as easily as a guy could is just foolish. Like I said.

LOL

No, dude. The average woman has a tenth of the chance the average man does of putting me in the hospital. While there are women out there who are physically adept, they aren't the norm and they're certainly not all going to pick the shitty job of prison guard.   

Quote

If you get hit in the plexes, you feel it. Get your ears smashed, you feel it. Get somebody gouging your eyes out, you feel it. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman, short or tall. Strong, or not as strong.

Except a woman will never have the chance to do that to a man in prison who buffs up and is on kill mode for fear of being raped in the ass and will fucking murder any woman guard (who are average women the majority of the time) who tried to do any of those things. You're not even taking the psychological effects into this, also.

Sorry, but no. It's too dangerous for women and they can't handle it. Men can barely handle it.

Then I'll keep it simple here. Yeah, sure thing, an average woman has less of a chance of putting an average guy in the hospital. But you don't fucking throw average people into a prison guard job.

The key point, is training. There should be a set physical standard for both men and women to hit when they sign up for a job like that. And there should be high quality training for the both. That's it.

In regards to kung fu bullshit.

I'm aware that it's called "martial arts."

However. When you take some martial arts principals, and you apply them to street fighting, when you apply the very basic motions and principals to a set of options that you can use, then they become a very, very effective way of stopping a fight quickly.

It's not a win-all trump card of course. There's always other factors. And more often than not, you have to be really accurate in your strikes. Essentially, challenger, strip the "art" part out of martial arts and you're left with real world fighting tactics that are actually incredibly dangerous to have used on you.

Of course when you get rushed by three guys you're not going to have time to pull anything fancy. Nobody is. Not even a good fighter could really pull anything fancy when they're outnumbered.

I was taught something different though. When you're rushed. When you're outnumbered. You pick one guy. Just one. And you take him down with you. You put all your focus on one.

Anyway. This thread was just a simple question. Nobody here is calling any shots. And regardless of any opinions here, things will continue to work the way they currently do. Somebody's else's life, their choice. We can bluster on all we want here about this and that but the real basic reality here is that no matter what either of us say it won't ever amount to shit anyway.

We both have our different viewpoints is all. I've been around people who have been in fights, and I've been taught a bit about, and shown what they know. I live in an area up here where the woman are a little more rough around the edges.

But, maybe instead of asking about which sex should work a shitty dangerous job over the other.

People should ask what the fuck is wrong with society and why the fuck so many people have to be fucking stuffed in a prison box because they were raised shitty.

Sandtrap, thing is, I'm going to wager that you don't know how you fight. Chances are, any convict that's gonna start trouble has most likely been in a scrap or two.

I may live somewhat detached from things but I'm not a fucking dense sack of rocks.

I'm aware that you could probably throw a fucking convict down a mountain and that's probably his way of brushing his teeth in the morning. It's simple math not fucking rocket science. A fighter is going to look like a fighter and a fighter, a convict is going to know how to fight because that's their natural environment.

As I said to challenger this morning privately since I didn't want to derail the thread.

He's presented the science to back things up. So there it is. What the fuck else is there left to say?

Don't assume that because I've only ever been in a few fights before, that I do my best to avoid them, that I don't study things. That I don't draw relatively logical conclusions that are fairly fucking easy to arrive at. If you really think that I'm not aware that a convict doesn't have a higher chance of being familiar with fighting and its nature, then I must really fucking come off as just some dumbass farmer in a field who can't pull off 2+2.

Quote from: Sandtrap on March 28, 2015, 12:15:42 PM

Quote from: saⱭ tooᗺ 2x on March 28, 2015, 08:58:38 AM

Sandtrap, thing is, I'm going to wager that you don't know how you fight. Chances are, any convict that's gonna start trouble has most likely been in a scrap or two.

I may live somewhat detached from things but I'm not a fucking dense sack of rocks.

I'm aware that you could probably throw a fucking convict down a mountain and that's probably his way of brushing his teeth in the morning. It's simple math not fucking rocket science. A fighter is going to look like a fighter and a fighter, a convict is going to know how to fight because that's their natural environment.

As I said to challenger this morning privately since I didn't want to derail the thread.

He's presented the science to back things up. So there it is. What the fuck else is there left to say?

Don't assume that because I've only ever been in a few fights before, that I do my best to avoid them, that I don't study things. That I don't draw relatively logical conclusions that are fairly fucking easy to arrive at. If you really think that I'm not aware that a convict doesn't have a higher chance of being familiar with fighting and its nature, then I must really fucking come off as just some dumbass farmer in a field who can't pull off 2+2.

You don't, but the way you're presenting your point makes it look as if you think a woman can handle a lifer.

To somebody who was trained in that sort of thing? I wouldn't call it an impossibility. Is it likely that any normal person would come out on top? No. Is it likely that even a well trained guard would come out on top? Depends on the scenario but frankly, no.

And the key thing about prisons is, the guards watch out for that sot of shit and do their best to shut it down before it happens. But the point here is, fuck, if somebody wants to do something, you shouldn't stop them.

However, you should put up a good series of barriers beforehand to make sure that a person who is going into that line of work can handle it.

It all comes down to the persons themselves.

If a woman wants to sign up for a job like that, she has to fill a standard. If she signs up for a job like that, she has to be aware of the risks she's taking on herself. And if she's okay with that, then why stop her?

It's exactly the same as any person signing up to be a police officer. You wake up every day with the potential to see the worst parts of human beings, and likely, to be killed or attacked.

If you don't fucking accept those risks and the responsibility of you job then you shouldn't have the job.

But to somebody who does? Don't stop them, no matter who they are.

You set up barriers, and tests, and give them appropriate training.

And if you don't? Then it's just another failing on the part of the system.