Quote from: DAS B00T 2016 on February 29, 2016, 04:50:36 PMYou're doing something right when the plebs love you and the rich fucks want you dead because you're reforming shit all up in that shit to bridge the extreme ends of Roman society.You say that now...SpoilerAlthough I agree the Senate was corrupt and institutionally incestuous as fuck. Shit needed to be done and the plebs were the most powerful vehicle for change throughout Roman history.
You're doing something right when the plebs love you and the rich fucks want you dead because you're reforming shit all up in that shit to bridge the extreme ends of Roman society.
He was a monster, just like all war-mongers and conquerors.
Quote from: SecondClass on February 29, 2016, 05:21:41 PMHe was a monster, just like all war-mongers and conquerors.Confirmed for knowing fucking nothing about Julius Caesar or Republican Rome at all.This meme of projecting postmodern morality onto historical figures and events is ridiculous. You're talking about a man who essentially predates pacifism.I want critical theory to get the fuck out of history.
Quote from: SecondClass on February 29, 2016, 07:21:27 PMif I go out and pillage a town, it's just as bad in the year 200 as in the year 2000I dunno, that 200AD village's enemy villages would probably be pretty happy that you did them a service.
if I go out and pillage a town, it's just as bad in the year 200 as in the year 2000
ironic how the people itt trying to appropriate old julio are the same that mock cultural relativism
Quote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 07:16:01 PMironic how the people itt trying to appropriate old julio are the same that mock cultural relativismWho here is appropriating Julius?I don't think anyone would be dumb enough to try to translate his actions and worldview into modern politics, or vice versa. The realities of the ages are too different.I don't really believe in cultural relativism in regard to examining modern politics (I'm not totally opposed to it either), but trying to look at history through ideological lenses is ridiculous and destructive to the science that it is.Can we look at history for fun and discuss who was right and who was wrong, make value statements? Sure. But trying to read into ancient history based on our modern standards and ideologies is ridiculous.In doing so, you end up looking at history as "thousands of years of asshole shit followed by like 100 or so years of not so terrible shit".
In doing so, you end up looking at history as "thousands of years of asshole shit followed by like 100 or so years of not so terrible shit".
Quote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 07:44:49 PMQuote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 29, 2016, 07:25:13 PMQuote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 07:16:01 PMironic how the people itt trying to appropriate old julio are the same that mock cultural relativismWho here is appropriating Julius?I don't think anyone would be dumb enough to try to translate his actions and worldview into modern politics, or vice versa. The realities of the ages are too different.I don't really believe in cultural relativism in regard to examining modern politics (I'm not totally opposed to it either), but trying to look at history through ideological lenses is ridiculous and destructive to the science that it is.Can we look at history for fun and discuss who was right and who was wrong, make value statements? Sure. But trying to read into ancient history based on our modern standards and ideologies is ridiculous.In doing so, you end up looking at history as "thousands of years of asshole shit followed by like 100 or so years of not so terrible shit".you cant say that ceasar did nothing wrong because what he did was par of the age and simultaneously not believe in cultural relativism. you're excusing ceasar because the culture he was in made his actions appropriate.>history is science so you can't make moral evaluations on actions madelmao whatif there's some context missing that changes the moral value of his decisions then moral opinion will change when that information comes to light, i don't know where you're getting these memes fromI think the important distinction between cultural relativism in modern politics and cultural relativism in historical contexts is that historical peoples had no exposure to the standards of today. Compare this to our massively networked world, where people have, for the most part, access to a great diversity of ideas. There are exceptions, of course, but most people have a choice in their ideology. That said, right and wrong don't really exist to me right now outside of the context of my Christianity, and good ol' JC predates Christianity. So you shouldn't read into my positive view of Caesar as anything more than "Caesar pleases me".
Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 29, 2016, 07:25:13 PMQuote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 07:16:01 PMironic how the people itt trying to appropriate old julio are the same that mock cultural relativismWho here is appropriating Julius?I don't think anyone would be dumb enough to try to translate his actions and worldview into modern politics, or vice versa. The realities of the ages are too different.I don't really believe in cultural relativism in regard to examining modern politics (I'm not totally opposed to it either), but trying to look at history through ideological lenses is ridiculous and destructive to the science that it is.Can we look at history for fun and discuss who was right and who was wrong, make value statements? Sure. But trying to read into ancient history based on our modern standards and ideologies is ridiculous.In doing so, you end up looking at history as "thousands of years of asshole shit followed by like 100 or so years of not so terrible shit".you cant say that ceasar did nothing wrong because what he did was par of the age and simultaneously not believe in cultural relativism. you're excusing ceasar because the culture he was in made his actions appropriate.>history is science so you can't make moral evaluations on actions madelmao whatif there's some context missing that changes the moral value of his decisions then moral opinion will change when that information comes to light, i don't know where you're getting these memes from
Quote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 08:07:43 PMI wouldn't blame Ceasar for not knowing about gravitational waves. I don't see any evidence that the concepts of suffering and morality are post-Rome inventions.Ours certainly are.Consider also Caesar's political surroundings. I can summarize in a fairly lengthy post if you're not familiar with them. He was hardly much worse than those he competed with, by the standards of our day. If anything, he was better.Again, though, the standards of our day aren't anything special.
I wouldn't blame Ceasar for not knowing about gravitational waves. I don't see any evidence that the concepts of suffering and morality are post-Rome inventions.
Quote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 08:18:05 PMQuote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 29, 2016, 08:12:25 PMQuote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 08:07:43 PMI wouldn't blame Ceasar for not knowing about gravitational waves. I don't see any evidence that the concepts of suffering and morality are post-Rome inventions.Ours certainly are.Consider also Caesar's political surroundings. I can summarize in a fairly lengthy post if you're not familiar with them. He was hardly much worse than those he competed with, by the standards of our day. If anything, he was better.Again, though, the standards of our day aren't anything special.I don't think anything about how he compares to other of his time is how you should assess the morality of someone. Doing so's not even in alignment with historical impartiality, which would be along the lines of just saying "he did this, events followed".I'm just going along with a moral history thought process here, for the fun of it. I recognize the influence of taste in my view of history and try to separate my opinion from my understanding.But, if you are a follower of consequentialist or utilitarian morality, Caesar's alternatives are of great importance to any evaluation of him. If Caesar had not kicked off the civil war and taken over when he did, Pompey would have been the top dog in Roman politics, and he was a power hungry senate shill. Pompey's first interest was amassing power and glory for himself. I doubt things would have gone so well for the plebs if Caesar didn't take over.
Quote from: Chief Among Sinners on February 29, 2016, 08:12:25 PMQuote from: eggsalad on February 29, 2016, 08:07:43 PMI wouldn't blame Ceasar for not knowing about gravitational waves. I don't see any evidence that the concepts of suffering and morality are post-Rome inventions.Ours certainly are.Consider also Caesar's political surroundings. I can summarize in a fairly lengthy post if you're not familiar with them. He was hardly much worse than those he competed with, by the standards of our day. If anything, he was better.Again, though, the standards of our day aren't anything special.I don't think anything about how he compares to other of his time is how you should assess the morality of someone. Doing so's not even in alignment with historical impartiality, which would be along the lines of just saying "he did this, events followed".
Another important question- could the Republic have survived as it was before Caesar, or was it inevitably going to have to change to prevent implosion?
Serious History- Do you think Julius Caesar was right in what he did?
