Security vs Privacy

Ender · April 12, 2016, 02:30:51 PM

Which is more important to you?

More Than Mortal · April 12, 2016, 02:32:53 PM

I have no use for privacy if I am not secure.

MyNameIsCharlie · April 12, 2016, 02:37:35 PM

Privacy.

Kitsune 狐 · April 12, 2016, 02:39:04 PM

Security.

DAS B00T x2 · April 12, 2016, 02:40:34 PM

Privacy. I am my own security.

Mordo · April 12, 2016, 02:46:23 PM

Idk why people think these are mutually exclusive concepts.

Verbatim · April 12, 2016, 02:49:30 PM

Security by far.

More Than Mortal · April 12, 2016, 02:51:11 PM

Quote from: Mordo on April 12, 2016, 02:46:23 PM

Idk why people think these are mutually exclusive concepts.

^ Pretty much.

Policies pursued like the banning of encryption harm both security and privacy. Security, as any kind of useful concept, has to include some kind of protection from government. Nobody would reasonably argue that somebody living inside Nazi Germany, despite an extensive surveillance state, was secure in any meaningful sense.

When it comes to legitimate trade-offs, however, then security should probably take precedence. The discussion about which comes first in principle is different to the discussion about whether things like metadata collection are actually warranted.

Ian · April 12, 2016, 02:51:17 PM

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

Define "Security" for me. How can I trust this "Security"? Why is one of my Constitutional rights (provided the assumption we're talking about the issue in the US) no longer valid over some ambiguous term used by a government that is allowed to have its own privacy?

I'll never understand this logic. People these days bitch and moan about their government, but continuously give more power to it, just hoping that the "wrong people" stay out it. That's fucking asinine. You wouldn't have to worry about the "wrong people" having power over you if the position didn't have such power in the first place. When you trade your fundamental rights for "Security" a vague term with an arbitrary meaning, you lose both.

Verbatim · April 12, 2016, 02:56:11 PM

Quote from: Mordo on April 12, 2016, 02:46:23 PM

Idk why people think these are mutually exclusive concepts.

Security is to protect your identity, your wallet, and/or your life. Things that matter.

Privacy is to protect your name, your reputation, and/or your social anxiety. Things that don't necessarily matter at all.

Verbatim · April 12, 2016, 02:56:40 PM

Quote from: Ian on April 12, 2016, 02:51:17 PM

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-benjamin-franklins-quote-on-liberty-vs-security/

More Than Mortal · April 12, 2016, 02:57:06 PM

Quote from: Ian on April 12, 2016, 02:51:17 PM

Define "Security" for me.

Presumably it's actions taken by a government which legitimately result in significantly less tension, unease or discord in society presented either by domestic or international threats.

Quote

How can I trust this "Security"?

Because we're discussing principles. If you're saying "I prefer privacy because I don't trust the government", then fine. But what you're actually saying is not a commentary on the relative value of either privacy or security, because I imagine you feel less secure precisely because your privacy is being violated. It's entirely possible to live in a world where security and privacy are perfectly correlated, as the only threat individuals face is a tyrannical State.

Ian · April 12, 2016, 02:59:52 PM

You don't need some over reaching force to protect your personal idea of "what matters". And others don't necessarily agree with you, specifically the courts which have struck down over surveillance before (they're just going to do it anyways because the branch in charge of enforcing the courts decision is the one causing the problems).

Quote from: Verbatim on April 12, 2016, 02:56:11 PM

Security is to protect your identity, your wallet, and/or your life. Things that matter.

Privacy is to protect your name, your reputation, and/or your social anxiety. Things that don't necessarily matter at all.

Yeah, I read that before. Sucks for you that the butchered meaning still holds merit.

Quote from: Verbatim on April 12, 2016, 02:56:40 PM

http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/14/how-the-world-butchered-benjamin-franklins-quote-on-liberty-vs-security/

More Than Mortal · April 12, 2016, 03:00:53 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on April 12, 2016, 02:56:11 PM

Quote from: Mordo on April 12, 2016, 02:46:23 PM
Idk why people think these are mutually exclusive concepts.
Security is to protect your identity, your wallet, and/or your life. Things that matter.

Privacy is to protect your name, your reputation, and/or your social anxiety. Things that don't necessarily matter at all.

I think you're being overly-reductionist with your definitions of privacy and security. It's not entirely clear that they can be delineated in that way; take the British government's collection of journalists' families' medical histories. This is no doubt a breach of privacy, and is consequential. Concern about what the government will do with information about you is not unwarranted.

Ian · April 12, 2016, 03:03:21 PM

And the security we have now is a complete contradiction to this.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on April 12, 2016, 02:57:06 PM

Presumably it's actions taken by a government which legitimately result in significantly less tension, unease or discord in society presented either by domestic or international threats.

If it's solely on principles I'd still say privacy. Because security comes naturally from your precautions for privacy.

Quote

Because we're discussing principles. If you're saying "I prefer privacy because I don't trust the government", then fine. But what you're actually saying is not a commentary on the relative value of either privacy or security, because I imagine you feel less secure precisely because your privacy is being violated. It's entirely possible to live in a world where security and privacy are perfectly correlated, as the only threat individuals face is a tyrannical State.

More Than Mortal · April 12, 2016, 03:06:20 PM

Quote from: Ian on April 12, 2016, 03:03:21 PM

If it's solely on principles I'd still say privacy. Because security comes naturally from your precautions for privacy.

Not absolutely. The question is whether or not it is legitimate to sacrifice some privacy which is legitimately getting in the way of implementing genuinely security-enhancing measures.

For the purpose of this discussion, there is conflict between the two. In an actual trade-off, which would you choose?

Ian · April 12, 2016, 03:08:18 PM

Privacy, because if I lose the things personal to me, I risk losing myself. At that point I may as well be dead.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on April 12, 2016, 03:06:20 PM

Not absolutely. The question is whether or not it is legitimate to sacrifice some privacy which is legitimately getting in the way of implementing genuinely security-enhancing measures.

For the purpose of this discussion, there is conflict between the two. In an actual trade-off, which would you choose?

April 12, 2016, 03:15:43 PM

Privacy. The government only needs to stay secure from foreign threats, and an actual world war or invasion is pretty much nonexistent at this point in time.

Flee · April 12, 2016, 04:29:39 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · April 12, 2016, 04:42:35 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mattie G Indahouse · April 12, 2016, 06:35:29 PM

Lets say I make a wish where the US becomes more focused on security than privacy. What things would change and what things would I loose for privacy? For example would I have to tell some authority figure where I'm going for the day and what I'm going to do?

snee0rp · April 12, 2016, 06:58:36 PM

The most successful terrorist attacks kill a few thousand people. My country had hundreds of millions of people. The chance of dying in a terrorist attack are so slim that "security" is basically useless. Privacy is more important.

CIS · April 12, 2016, 07:31:43 PM

Quote from: Hargbeast on April 12, 2016, 06:58:36 PM

The most successful terrorist attacks kill a few thousand people. My country had hundreds of millions of people. The chance of dying in a terrorist attack are so slim that "security" is basically useless. Privacy is more important.

From my rudimentary understanding of international affairs, terrorist attacks carry more weight than just a few thousand people getting killed. They have a significant impact on internal politics and can be detrimental to our economy.

Batch · April 12, 2016, 11:02:59 PM

Privacy.

As a white male theres no need for the government to violate that (casts line) but I think we're all smart enough to cater our own security.

BaconShelf · April 13, 2016, 06:31:13 AM

I value my security over privacy. I mean, both are good but if I had to throw one away to keep the other I'd rather have security.

Genghis Khan · April 13, 2016, 09:38:51 AM

One cannot exist without the other.

PSU · April 13, 2016, 11:39:10 AM

100% security.

Super Irish · April 14, 2016, 02:01:59 PM

I would say privacy gives security in some form. You can't abuse or manipulate information for your benefit when you know nothing in the first place. E.g. Classified documents. Private access to only a select few, and that in turn makes whatever information within those documents secure.

Seeking security by knowing everything (not necessarily the only way to go about it, but one way) cancels out any aspect of privacy, so I prefer the former option.

Elai · April 14, 2016, 06:22:05 PM

I don't give a shit about privacy for the most part, so security.

Gatortag · April 14, 2016, 07:18:12 PM

Privacy. The phrase you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide kinda annoys me. Our government can protect us from other countries with the military. Everything else is left up to states. We have police. I don't think the NSA should be tracking and listening to all phone calls. It's wrong. So privacy all the way. It stretches much further too. Such as why is the government worried if you're doing drugs, or growing them? Anything like that is your own private matter. Let people do what they will, even if it means screwing over their own lives.

Poll

Which is more important?

Security vs Privacy