I need sources for this.

However, 3 is a non-starter because free will doesn't exist.

Think of a city, and then tell me what it is. Change your mind as much as you like.

City-soul analogy?

Isn't that to do with morality?

A collection of people living together.

Are you being facetious, or did you not understand the question?

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on November 23, 2014, 01:21:31 PM

A collection of people living together.

Are you being facetious, or did you not understand the question?

I feel like I've been stupid for a while now, so a straight-forward answer would be best.

lol

Quote from: Lord Ruler on November 23, 2014, 01:34:07 PM

Mind explaining it?

Think of a city, and then tell me the name of the city you thought of.

New york

Quote from: Lord Ruler on November 23, 2014, 01:40:36 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on November 23, 2014, 01:39:27 PM

Quote from: Lord Ruler on November 23, 2014, 01:34:07 PM

Mind explaining it?

Think of a city, and then tell me the name of the city you thought of.

New york

When you were choosing which city to name, did Cairo pop into your head? Or have you only just thought of Cairo now that I've mentioned it?

I'm not sure what this has to do with free will...

I'm not sure what this has to do with free will...

In order to have free will, you quite literally need to think of something before you think of it. The nature of consciousness means you are not free to choose that which didn't happen to occur to you.

When you pay attention to how thoughts, desires and intentions arise in consciousness, it becomes patently clear that choice is incredibly restricted and not in one's own control. You're not controlling the storm, and you're not lost in it - you are the storm.

Quote from: Mad Max on November 23, 2014, 01:50:57 PM

I'm not sure what this has to do with free will...

In order to have free will, you quite literally need to think of something before you think of it.

Yeah...I'm in over my head on this one.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on November 23, 2014, 01:48:52 PM

have you only just thought of Cairo now that I've mentioned it?

Um... yeah?

Do you make a habit of only reading the last half of sentences?

I was asking him if he'd thought of Cairo in response to the initial question, or whether my mentioning of Cairo was the first instance it had occurred to him; Ruler managed to answer the question well enough.

So what you're saying is that I only though of New York because I was reminded of it?

I didn't actually go through a list of all cities and pick it?

Pls be gentle I'm just trying to understand.

Not that you were reminded of it, per se, as that would imply something exogenous was there to remind you (which could very well have been the case), merely that you could only choose to pick it because it occurred to you, essentially, by chance. It throws free will up into the air when the only options we can ever access are there, oftentimes, by mechanisms beyond our conscious control.

Quote from: Byrne on November 23, 2014, 01:59:15 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on November 23, 2014, 01:48:52 PM

have you only just thought of Cairo now that I've mentioned it?

Um... yeah?

Do you make a habit of only reading the last half of sentences?

I was asking him if he'd thought of Cairo in response to the initial question, or whether my mentioning of Cairo was the first instance it had occurred to him; Ruler managed to answer the question well enough.

Cairo is not a city close to me, it would only pop into my head should I be reminded of it.
You reminded me of it, so I did only think of Cairo as you mentioned it.

There. I answered the first part of your question too.

Quote from: Lord Ruler on November 23, 2014, 02:04:35 PM

So what you're saying is that I only though of New York because I was reminded of it?

I didn't actually go through a list of all cities and pick it?

Pls be gentle I'm just trying to understand.

Not that you were reminded of it, per se, as that would imply something exogenous was there to remind you (which could very well have been the case), merely that you could only choose to pick it because it occurred to you, essentially, by chance. It throws free will up into the air when the only options we can ever access are there, oftentimes, by mechanisms beyond our conscious control.

But we're still choosing aren't we?

Quote from: Lord Ruler on November 23, 2014, 02:12:51 PM

But we're still choosing aren't we?

Yes, you merely can't choose to choose. Choice is a necessary part of human life, as lying in bed all day doing fuck all is still a choice. It's merely that your choices are necessarily part of this determined stream.

So what if I didn't answer the question?