Quote from: Icy on February 22, 2016, 10:58:30 PMAlso, way to not even address Clinton's college plan. I spent, like, 1 whole minute finding that for you.Because reading.Is it bad? No. Would it help? Yes. But it seems to treat more symptoms than it does the disease, focusing more on things like interest rates and refinancing options than it does the fact that tertiary education is fucking absurdly expensive.In-state college assistance? That's great in some respects, but if you're stuck in a shit state that doesn't have very good schools...well...good luck. The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition is obscene.
Also, way to not even address Clinton's college plan. I spent, like, 1 whole minute finding that for you.
and when the global economy is still recovering
Quote from: Icy on February 22, 2016, 11:06:58 PMand when the global economy is still recoveringIt has already recovered. Get used to the new normal.
Quote from: Mad Max on February 22, 2016, 11:02:00 PMQuote from: Icy on February 22, 2016, 10:58:30 PMAlso, way to not even address Clinton's college plan. I spent, like, 1 whole minute finding that for you.Because reading.Is it bad? No. Would it help? Yes. But it seems to treat more symptoms than it does the disease, focusing more on things like interest rates and refinancing options than it does the fact that tertiary education is fucking absurdly expensive.In-state college assistance? That's great in some respects, but if you're stuck in a shit state that doesn't have very good schools...well...good luck. The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition is obscene.So like we addressed in the last thread, you want Sanders to essentially dismantle and rebuild three essential government systems - colleges, healthcare, and elections. You also want him to rebuild our infrastructure, rethink how we engage in foreign affairs, and change criminal justice laws at a federal level.You want all of this done, or at least making decent progress, within four years, through (at best) a split Congress, and when the global economy is still recovering. Oh, and for fun - lets add in the fact that Sanders likely will have to get a justice appointed to the Supreme Court amidst all of this.And nothing less than this is satisfactory?
Quote from: Icy on February 22, 2016, 11:06:58 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 22, 2016, 11:02:00 PMQuote from: Icy on February 22, 2016, 10:58:30 PMAlso, way to not even address Clinton's college plan. I spent, like, 1 whole minute finding that for you.Because reading.Is it bad? No. Would it help? Yes. But it seems to treat more symptoms than it does the disease, focusing more on things like interest rates and refinancing options than it does the fact that tertiary education is fucking absurdly expensive.In-state college assistance? That's great in some respects, but if you're stuck in a shit state that doesn't have very good schools...well...good luck. The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition is obscene.So like we addressed in the last thread, you want Sanders to essentially dismantle and rebuild three essential government systems - colleges, healthcare, and elections. You also want him to rebuild our infrastructure, rethink how we engage in foreign affairs, and change criminal justice laws at a federal level.You want all of this done, or at least making decent progress, within four years, through (at best) a split Congress, and when the global economy is still recovering. Oh, and for fun - lets add in the fact that Sanders likely will have to get a justice appointed to the Supreme Court amidst all of this.And nothing less than this is satisfactory?Yes, I do want all those things.
Yeah man, issues specific to younger people are so important.
The economy may have, but your average Joe still feels it in his bank account.
Quote from: Mad Max on February 22, 2016, 11:09:54 PMQuote from: Icy on February 22, 2016, 11:06:58 PMQuote from: Mad Max on February 22, 2016, 11:02:00 PMQuote from: Icy on February 22, 2016, 10:58:30 PMAlso, way to not even address Clinton's college plan. I spent, like, 1 whole minute finding that for you.Because reading.Is it bad? No. Would it help? Yes. But it seems to treat more symptoms than it does the disease, focusing more on things like interest rates and refinancing options than it does the fact that tertiary education is fucking absurdly expensive.In-state college assistance? That's great in some respects, but if you're stuck in a shit state that doesn't have very good schools...well...good luck. The difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition is obscene.So like we addressed in the last thread, you want Sanders to essentially dismantle and rebuild three essential government systems - colleges, healthcare, and elections. You also want him to rebuild our infrastructure, rethink how we engage in foreign affairs, and change criminal justice laws at a federal level.You want all of this done, or at least making decent progress, within four years, through (at best) a split Congress, and when the global economy is still recovering. Oh, and for fun - lets add in the fact that Sanders likely will have to get a justice appointed to the Supreme Court amidst all of this.And nothing less than this is satisfactory?Yes, I do want all those things.In four years.And we are still saying that Bernie Sanders supporters have a good understanding of government and how it works?
Issues specific to younger people are among the most important issues--if not THE most important issue.
It's ok to spend trillions on wars, but not on our own people?
What about when issues which aren't specific to younger people are the more important ones, even for younger people. Your free college won't mean jack shit if we don't address issues like entitlement spending, infrastructure, inequality etc.
so your solution is to keep them idiots.And sap them of all their money, too, for good measure. Brilliant.
Quote from: Verbatim on February 22, 2016, 11:29:14 PMso your solution is to keep them idiots.And sap them of all their money, too, for good measure. Brilliant.I'm pretty sure you know that's a mis-characterisation of what I actually think. You also avoided my point, which is that youth support for Bernie is meaningless because young people are fucking dumb. That doesn't entail avoiding issues specific to young people, merely that listening to them is not usually a good way of forming policy.
Quote from: Verbatim on February 22, 2016, 11:29:14 PMso your solution is to keep them idiots.And sap them of all their money, too, for good measure. Brilliant.I'm pretty sure you know that's a mis-characterisation of what I actually think.
but you enable it with your ideology.
If you'd rather not have the rich pay for student tuition, that's basically the same thing as saying "I want millions of young, dumb people in debt."
You may not nominally believe that, but those are the consequences of your beliefs.
You want the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer.
"I'd rather have billions of dollars worth of cash burn holes in the pockets of a bunch of rich fuckholes, utterly wasted, than I would oblige them to make life a little bit easier for future generations the only people in the universe who really matter. The rich deserve their money, for [some reason]. We have no right to help secure a better future for our youth, because that would involve forcing people into being good and charitable--even though it's virtually impossible for human beings to be good and charitable on their own. Fairness is too much to ask for from humanity."If you don't want college to be free, this is what you believe. Embrace it.
Maybe if we made better education available to them they wouldn't be fucking dumb
Quote from: Mad Max on February 22, 2016, 11:41:46 PMMaybe if we made better education available to them they wouldn't be fucking dumbNow you're talking about primary and secondary education.
but what good are they if our own kids aren't prepared for them?
Quote from: Mad Max on February 23, 2016, 12:18:35 AM but what good are they if our own kids aren't prepared for them?Exactly my point. What's the fucking point in having free college is those colleges have to try and educate people spat out by a failing primary and secondary public school system? All of this noise about reforming higher education--which is not just coming from Bernie--is largely a case of politicians unknowingly kicking a problem down the road.
I suppose I enable racism because I'm opposed to affirmative action?
debt isn't some big spookeh ghost waiting to jump out of your closet
Do you know how Germany manages to offer free higher education? They effectively bar half of the population from ever getting a degree; would you prefer that to some system which involves debt?
The consequences of my beliefs that people should have access to the best education possible and not be poor is that people will end up stupid and with no money?
your refusal to acknowledge race as a social construct sometimes leaves me wondering
and the difference between you and me so far is that I want to vanquish the monster entirely, and you want to keep it around.
I don't need to remind you that there are already colleges in the US that are highly exclusionary already.
Students should be paid to go to college.
because putting people in crippling debt does
People can't be expected to be charitable--so we should force them.
I suppose the fact that your chosen policy would increase the national deficit is irrelevant. . . Or does public debt not count? If you hate all kinds of debt, why are you not literally railing against government excess given how we have a debt-to-GDP ratio unprecedented in peacetime? Why the inconsistency?
Germany excludes that proportion of the population so they can afford it, not because only half of all German high school grads are smart enough. . .
What the actual fuck? Students should be paid to pursue something that almost entirely benefits them, and which has incredibly small positive externalities?
How long are you going to ignore the fact that this is something I want to avoid.
I'd say for about as long as it takes for you to explain how your solution is better than the one proposed by Sanders, or myself.
Change the repayment system to be more like the U.K.'s or Australia's. The more you earn, the more you pay back, and you only begin paying when you earn above a certain income.
The revenue required for funding higher education nationally would probably tax people more than the minimal gains they see in wage rises.
Higher education is something which is pursued while an adult; it is something you choose to pursue after having received both your entitlement and duty to non-tertiary education.
Far too many jobs in this country (as in, all of them that are worth having) want you to have a degree for that to be true.
Published transcripts of Bernie's Wall Street speeches
