No, but men are inherently more competitive than women on the average.

There you go, "on the average". To me, words like "inherent" and "on the average" are incompatible. It's either inherent, or it isn't. So, either you mean that all men are inherently more competitive than women, or you don't--but you can't muddy that water.

Otherwise, it's no longer an inherent, see?

You need to provide an example. I've provided one, at least.

I don't know exactly what you want. Do you want evidence to suggest that you can influence gender? That should be easy enough.

Quote from: challengerX on June 05, 2015, 04:07:05 PM

No, but men are inherently more competitive than women on the average.

There you go, "on the average". To me, words like "inherent" and "on the average" are incompatible. It's either inherent, or it isn't. So, either you mean that all men are inherently more competitive than women, or you don't--but you can't muddy that water.

Otherwise, it's no longer an inherent, see?

Quote

You need to provide an example. I've provided one, at least.

I don't know exactly what you want. Do you want evidence to suggest that you can influence gender? That should be easy enough.

If you could influence gender, then that is what would be done with trans people instead of changing their bodies. But it doesn't really work, which is why it doesn't happen.

Sorry for making you all upsettable.

lol challenger is actually challengina

If you could influence gender, then that is what would be done with trans people instead of changing their bodies. But it doesn't really work, which is why it doesn't happen.

Sorry for making you all upsettable.

i mean influence in the sense that that's what i believe causes people to become dysphoric in the first place
i don't believe it's genetic

i could be wrong, but that's just what i always believed

you didn't make me upsettable, i just AM upsettable, so i should be sorry

it just really feels like i'm repeating myself constantly in this thread, which is frustrating when i have to do it for the people who are on my side of the issue

Quote from: Groot on June 05, 2015, 04:26:43 PM

If you could influence gender, then that is what would be done with trans people instead of changing their bodies. But it doesn't really work, which is why it doesn't happen.

Sorry for making you all upsettable.

i mean influence in the sense that that's what i believe causes people to become dysphoric in the first place
i don't believe it's genetic

i could be wrong, but that's just what i always believed

you didn't make me upsettable, i just AM upsettable, so i should be sorry

it just really feels like i'm repeating myself constantly in this thread, which is frustrating when i have to do it for the people who are on my side of the issue

So in your ideal world, how would everyone behave and how would this all work in regard to trans people and transitioning? I guess I'm still not completely understanding your thoughts on this.

If its inherent in the majority, yeah it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

You really can't do it effectively. Pretty immoral, too.

Oh, it's extremely unethical. Undeniably. But that's not the subject, is it? The subject is whether it's possible, and, last night, I gathered all the information I could about the Money/Reiner case. Learned a lot. Formed a new conclusion from it.

First of all, Reiner was not castrated at all. He was undergoing a circumcision when something went horribly wrong. As a result, Money had recommended that he be reassigned as a female and raised as such. He reported the case as a success, when in actuality, Reiner never personally identified as a female, and began living as a male at age 15. He was suicidally depressed at that age, and finally did so when he was 38.

John Money was obviously a crazyfuck. A contemptible human being. However, from this case, I amend my position on the issue only slightly. His case, though it does NOT prove that gender is environmental, doesn't disprove it, either. You cannot simply raise a boy as a girl, or vice versa. That would be imposing. You can't force gender on someone. Your identity has to come about naturally and spontaneously. And depending on that social environment, it really could go either way. Male, female, or something in between (androgyny).

I consider myself androgynous-leaning-male in terms of my gender, for example. There are many traits I have that are stereotypically associated with women--other that are associated with men. Mostly men. It could be argued that most people have an androgynous gender. In fact, that's my argument.

and that's merely a hypothesis based on observations i've had throughout my life, combined with a basic understanding of brain development at young ages, so i don't have any hard evidence--but that's what i believe the truth to be, and i've seen nothing to contradict it thus far

you disagree, and i think that's just how it's going to be, unless you indeed have some evidence to quash that hypothesis

Kinda is. Especially since you're arguing for the "brainwashing" of people to disregard gender.

Can you explain to me, then, how disregarding gender (as opposed to sex) would produce any sort of problems? I know you consider gender synonymous with sex, but I'm not using the word in the same way as you. I'm not saying we should disregard sex, but we certainly ought to disregard gender roles. So, explain to me why, if we threw away gender roles, that there would be some problem.

I know all of this. That's why I said you can't condition gender.

I was merely summing up the key factors of the case. I was under the impression that the boy was castrated, but the fact that he wasn't kind of changes my argument a little bit.

This is what I'm saying. Ideally, males and females are fine with their ended when born. Some people gender dysphoria (which is a mental illness) and screws up their perception of themselves.

Well, great. I think we're kind of on the same page, now. I would agree with you when you say that, ideally, males and females are fine with their... let's say, congruent sex/gender alignment. That's ideal.

However, what about those who aren't necessarily dysphoric, but are still nonbinary? They're still trans, but they're perfectly okay with that. Are you saying these people shouldn't be fine, or shouldn't be comfortable? And if so, why? Why does it matter, then, if they're perfectly content with their nonbinary status?

I don't contest that it's a disease--I'm merely illustrating scenarios where the disease has zero negative effect on the mental wellbeing of the individual.

Environment comes into play, so do your genes and what your parents teach you.

I would agree.

well, i'm glad that after 300+ replies, i finally have some support in that regard