Muslims girl from college posted this on instagram; can't stop facepalming

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 01:01:14 PM

Spoiler

I find it genuinely disheartening that people can be this fucking dense.

TL;DR - The people who committed 9/11 were just extremists, not Muslim extremists, just extremists. Apparently we wouldn't call white, middle-aged mothers Women extremists if they committed 9/11. Apparently reading the Koran will also introduce you to a humble faith, not at all riddled with violence or anti-semitism.

DAS B00T x2 · October 16, 2014, 01:10:20 PM

Can we all just admit that we're anti-islam yet?

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 01:13:32 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T x2 on October 16, 2014, 01:10:20 PM

Can we all just admit that we're anti-islam yet?

I've been willing to admit that since day one.

Assassin 11D7 · October 16, 2014, 01:22:27 PM

I've never read the Qur'an, so I never know what to make of these things. Yet, the Muslims I've met have been nice and never gave me trouble, so I don't see why one would blame the religion itself for these problems. Like with Christianity, you can't accurately blame the Crusades purely on the religion, there were a lot of other factors there.

RustingFloor · October 16, 2014, 01:26:02 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T x2 on October 16, 2014, 01:10:20 PM

Can we all just admit that we're anti-islam yet?

We've all admitted that, it's the only sane stance regarding Islam.

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 01:38:04 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on October 16, 2014, 01:22:27 PM

I don't see why one would blame the religion itself for these problems.

You're getting dangerously close to implying that the reason these "radicals" behave the way they do isn't because of their faith.

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 01:41:55 PM

Quote from: RustingFloor on October 16, 2014, 01:26:02 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T x2 on October 16, 2014, 01:10:20 PM
Can we all just admit that we're anti-islam yet?
We've all admitted that, it's the only sane stance regarding Islam.

The edge.

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 01:48:34 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:41:55 PM

The edge.

I know you're kidding, but I genuinely think it'd be edgier to be an apologist for Islam.

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 01:50:08 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 01:48:34 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:41:55 PM
The edge.
I know you're kidding, but I genuinely think it'd be edgier to be an apologist for Islam.

Not at all.

I refuse to see the common sense of opposing a religion for the few extremists who take the religious text word for word. It would be like hating all of Christianity for the WBC.

challengerX · October 16, 2014, 01:50:34 PM

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The Lord Ruler · October 16, 2014, 01:51:12 PM

is she hot at least

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 01:55:19 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:50:08 PM

I refuse to see the common sense of opposing a religion for the few extremists who take the religious text word for word. It would be like hating all of Christianity for the WBC.

Well I think that criticism relies on the assumption that somebody opposing Islam doesn't also oppose Christianity - which I, personally, do. To claim that Christianity, however, presents as similar a threat to liberal society as Islam does is just farce.

It's hardly a "few", either. 78pc of British Muslims thought the Danish cartoonist should've been prosecuted, and that only drops by 10pc on the question of whether people who insult Islam in general should be prosecuted.

This is in the U.K. . .

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 01:59:04 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 01:55:19 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:50:08 PM
I refuse to see the common sense of opposing a religion for the few extremists who take the religious text word for word. It would be like hating all of Christianity for the WBC.
Well I think that criticism relies on the assumption that somebody opposing Islam doesn't also oppose Christianity - which I, personally, do. To claim that Christianity, however, presents as similar a threat to liberal society as Islam does is just farce.

Every religion has it's flaws and problems with it - we're talking religious texts that were created thousands of years ago. You also have to take into account that social and economic problems in countries that are predominately Islamic are vastly worse than the predominately Christian western world. These problems also contribute to the rise of the extremists in said religion - not simply a problematic text.

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 02:03:08 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:59:04 PM

You also have to take into account that social and economic problems in countries that are predominately Islamic are vastly worse than the predominately Christian western world. These problems also contribute to the rise of the extremists in said religion - not simply a problematic text.

And are we to ignore that the adoption of such barbaric ideas perpetuates this poverty? There are two options when it comes to human interaction: discussion or violence. Faith cuts the conversation short.

I'm not going to pretend that the poverty of the region isn't a big issue, but when Muslims in Britain believe such things (and even go to fight for them) and when the relationship between poverty and extremism is questionable in countries like Pakistan I'm not going to get dewy-eyed because I might run the risk of hurting some people's feelings.

Assassin 11D7 · October 16, 2014, 02:03:14 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 01:38:04 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on October 16, 2014, 01:22:27 PM
I don't see why one would blame the religion itself for these problems.
You're getting dangerously close to implying that the reason these "radicals" behave the way they do isn't because of their faith.

Are you really implying it is wrong to be of the belief that the terrorists/extremists have other motives for their actions than their interpretation of the Qur'an?

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 02:05:57 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on October 16, 2014, 02:03:14 PM

Are you really implying it is wrong to be of the belief that the terrorists/extremists have other motives for their actions than their interpretation of the Qur'an?

Not at all; I'm a big admirer of Durkheim when it comes to sociology.

To brush their doctrine off as inconsequential, however, as Jonathan Haidt can sometimes do, is nothing short of stupidity. Are you honestly going to tell me that a person's belief is not the biggest proximate cause of their action?

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 02:10:45 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 02:03:08 PM

And are we to ignore that the adoption of such barbaric ideas perpetuates this poverty? There are two options when it comes to human interaction: discussion or violence. Faith cuts the conversation short.

You're welcome to believe what you want. Does the religious problems contribute to the poverty? Yes, of course. However, lackluster economic development, unwillingness to advance the uses of their few natural resources aside from oil, and the general climate of the region (We're talking about huge swaths of deserts with little water access) are all significant contributors to the problem - as would be similar in places that are not Islamic, but face similar environmental factors that hinder growth.

Quote

I'm not going to pretend that the poverty of the region isn't a big issue, but when Muslims in Britain believe such things (and even go to fight for them) and when the relationship between poverty and extremism is questionable in countries like Pakistan I'm not going to get dewy-eyed because I might run the risk of hurting some people's feelings.

I'd be interested in seeing the actual study, considering the article does not link it and only writes that "top American universities" conducted it.

And yes, it may not fix the problem in Pakistan. However, Pakistan is not the breeding ground of extremists. Yemen, Somalia, North Africa - they are the breeding grounds. As are the overcrowded refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan - people who have nothing but a tent. If you have that little, you are going to be swayed by anything.

Regarding the beliefs of Muslims in Britain regarding this, it simply comes down to being stupid enough to fall for the persuading, or cultural lag.

The Lord Ruler · October 16, 2014, 02:15:20 PM

Quote from: Lord Ruler on October 16, 2014, 01:51:12 PM

is she hot at least

RustingFloor · October 16, 2014, 02:15:21 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:50:08 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:41:55 PM
The edge.
I know you're kidding, but I genuinely think it'd be edgier to be an apologist for Islam.

Not at all.

I refuse to see the common sense of opposing a religion for the few extremists who take the religious text word for word. It would be like hating all of Christianity for the WBC.

I'm not opposed to Islam because of extremists, I'm opposed because of shit like this

Surah 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 02:17:15 PM

Quote from: RustingFloor on October 16, 2014, 02:15:21 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:50:08 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 01:41:55 PM
The edge.
I know you're kidding, but I genuinely think it'd be edgier to be an apologist for Islam.

Not at all.

I refuse to see the common sense of opposing a religion for the few extremists who take the religious text word for word. It would be like hating all of Christianity for the WBC.
I'm not opposed to Islam because of extremists, I'm opposed because of shit like this

Surah 4:34

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

As I said, all religious texts have their problems.

Word Wizard · October 16, 2014, 02:17:33 PM

Religious extremism is brought on by following their religion uncompromisingly. As Sam Harris put it, Muslims are going through their version of the 14th century crusades except with 21st century weapons.

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 02:20:31 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 02:10:45 PM

I want to make it clear I'm not at all minimising the extra-religious social, economic and political issues with the regions you mentioned. However, this isn't to excuse the actions of Muslims either in this region or not.

The democratically-elected government of Gaza is explicitly genocidal. The Ayatollah of Iran issued a 10-year fatwa for the writing of a novel. I've already linked you to the British Muslims in the case of the Danish cartoonist, and even in Denmark there was rioting and the smashing of embassies. The man who published those cartoons has a panic room and has even suffered an attempt on his life.

This absolutely cannot be brushed off as a few extremists. Islam breeds violence; it perpetuates an "us vs. them" mentality which becomes necessarily true when one side has got this in their psyche. The extent to which Christians and Jews are acceptable in Civil Society is, really, the extent to which they aren't religious.

If Jews followed the teachings of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, we'd condemn them regardless of where they were. When Mitt Romney goes against Mormonism by proclaiming the Constitution to have primacy, we have to realise the implications of this. When the Leninists murdered tens of millions of people in Russia, we condemned them and quite rightly so despite the fact that Russia was rife with poverty.

You can try to split the difference and point out the Soviets suffered from violent institutions rather than a generally violent population, but Islam also has exceedingly violent institutions. To try and claim that anything besides doctrine is what caused the Taliban to shoot Malala Yousafzai in the face, or causes Hamas to launch rockets from besides schools and hospitals, is nothing but an intellectual joke.

Spoiler

I also have this article from Foreign Affairs in my bookmarks which corroborates the Telegraph story. I believe it links a number of academics.

RustingFloor · October 16, 2014, 02:20:43 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 02:17:15 PM

As I said, all religious texts have their problems.

That doesn't excuse it and you know it.

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 02:22:10 PM

Quote from: RustingFloor on October 16, 2014, 02:20:43 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 02:17:15 PM
As I said, all religious texts have their problems.
That doesn't excuse it and you know it.

Where did I say it did?

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 02:30:20 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 02:20:31 PM

The democratically-elected government of Gaza is explicitly genocidal. The Ayatollah of Iran issued a 10-year fatwa for the writing of a novel.

I'd hardly motion to call the elections in a government with ties to Hamas and in a theocratic state democratic - much more aligned with the false sense of democracy that comes in a one-party state. But, we shall continue, and I'll keep this brief and continue more once I get back from my exam.

Quote

This absolutely cannot be brushed off as a few extremists. Islam breeds violence; it perpetuates an "us vs. them" mentality which becomes necessarily true when one side has got this in their psyche. The extent to which Christians and Jews are acceptable in Civil Society is, really, the extent to which they aren't religious.

As Sly posted, we are essentially seeing the Islamic culture go through it's Middle Ages with the use of modern weapons. I'm sure you have (or hope you have) studied the old Islamic and Muslim cultures, kingdoms, and other such examples of their history that existed throughout the European's Dark Ages. Hell, The Ottoman Empire was an example of this for hundreds of years, despite many of it's flaws.

Yes. The Islamic text has many flaws, many passages that are taken word for word and lead to extremists. Yet we have seen the peaks of Islamic culture. Who is to say you won't get there again by assisting in bringing these countries out of the third world, out of poverty?

Quote

If Jews followed the teachings of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, we'd condemn them regardless of where they were.

I'm not saying criticizing the Islamic teachings and cultures is bad - but outright saying it is a religion that is fundamentally broken and only works to breed extremists is no better.

Quote

To try and claim that anything besides doctrine is what caused the Taliban to shoot Malala Yousafzai in the face, or causes Hamas to launch rockets from besides schools and hospitals, is nothing but an intellectual joke.

And this is where we disagree. As I have said, yes. There are problems with Islam. They are not the sole problems of the region, and they are hardly the most contributing factor.

Assassin 11D7 · October 16, 2014, 02:30:48 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on October 16, 2014, 02:05:57 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on October 16, 2014, 02:03:14 PM
Are you really implying it is wrong to be of the belief that the terrorists/extremists have other motives for their actions than their interpretation of the Qur'an?
Not at all; I'm a big admirer of Durkheim when it comes to sociology.

To brush their doctrine off as inconsequential, however, as Jonathan Haidt can sometimes do, is nothing short of stupidity. Are you honestly going to tell me that a person's belief is not the biggest proximate cause of their action?

Do you mean a person's Religious/Spiritual belief being the biggest cause of their action? While it is indeed a factor that can have the biggest sway in how someone acts, I don't see how one draws the conclusion that 'Islam'(in this case) is inherently bad, because a small group of those Muslims utilize that belief in a way that causes harm to others. Likely the reason that group acts that way is because they are pressured by the current, and long history of conflict in the region, they are not well educated, and are swayed easily because their lack of education makes it easier for them to not think critically about what they're told.

Like the Church did in the times of the Crusades, when most people couldn't read and only priests would ever be able to get their hands on a Bible, when the common people don't know that much but believe in the same religion it can be easy to sway them to do what you want. Say things that are in the religious text, but contort them to fit the agenda you're pushing, then when the people don't know any better they may follow you thinking they're doing what's right in God's name, but in fact just doing what you want them to. There was nothing preached in the Gospels that supported vicious war and claiming the 'Holy Land', but nobody knew better, so the Church gained land and wealth when they succeeded, and access to trade too I'd guess.

The Lord Ruler · October 16, 2014, 02:37:14 PM

Quote from: Lord Ruler on October 16, 2014, 02:15:20 PM

Quote from: Lord Ruler on October 16, 2014, 01:51:12 PM
is she hot at least

Word Wizard · October 16, 2014, 02:37:27 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 02:30:20 PM

As Sly posted, we are essentially seeing the Islamic culture go through it's Middle Ages with the use of modern weapons. I'm sure you have (or hope you have) studied the old Islamic and Muslim cultures, kingdoms, and other such examples of their history that existed throughout the European's Dark Ages. Hell, The Ottoman Empire was an example of this for hundreds of years, despite many of it's flaws.

That's the thing though, we don't have hundreds of years to wait for them to faze out the bad. If the goal is for most to ignore large parts of their religion that just goes to show religion is unnecessary.

Alternative Facts · October 16, 2014, 02:39:44 PM

Quote from: Sly Instinct on October 16, 2014, 02:37:27 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 02:30:20 PM

As Sly posted, we are essentially seeing the Islamic culture go through it's Middle Ages with the use of modern weapons. I'm sure you have (or hope you have) studied the old Islamic and Muslim cultures, kingdoms, and other such examples of their history that existed throughout the European's Dark Ages. Hell, The Ottoman Empire was an example of this for hundreds of years, despite many of it's flaws.

That's the thing though, we don't have hundreds of years to wait for them to faze out the bad. If the goal is for most to ignore large parts of their religion that just goes to show religion is unnecessary.

There are ways to help them that will work to improve the situations in the countries. No matter what, it is going to be slow - they are vastly underdeveloped socially and economically - however, letting them remain in a shit-tier class with places like Haiti only continues to exacerbate the problem.

More Than Mortal · October 16, 2014, 02:42:42 PM

Quote from: IcyWind on October 16, 2014, 02:30:20 PM

I'm not saying criticizing the Islamic teachings and cultures is bad - but outright saying it is a religion that is fundamentally broken and only works to breed extremists is no better.

This is where we disagree, it would seem.

All religions, in my eyes, are fundamentally broken. Metaphysically, epistemologically and ethically. I'm not saying Islam only breeds extremism; you bring up the Islamic cultures of old, notable for the invention of algebra and other great feats of intelligence. However, we don't have a conception of "Islamic mathematics" because that domain isn't a religious one. In the same way, metaphysics nor ethics should be. This is why religions, to me, are broken. Not only are they intellectually and morally bankrupt, they have next to zero effective utility.

Now, as for the breeding of extremism? Like I've said, the extent to which Christians and Jews - most notably the latter - are acceptable in Civil Society is the extent to which they aren't really religious, without trying to sound conceited. Has this come from theological enlightenment, or religious nuance? No, it's come from the sheer force of secularism, humanism and modernity. Islam is breeding extremism because it is, essentially, the last bastion of Fideism against these moderating forces.

I'm rushing a bit, but I hope that clears it up.