Quote from: Auld Lang Turkey on January 02, 2016, 06:44:30 PM

Quote from: M8A-ORD on January 01, 2016, 03:30:00 PM

But why do you believe? And I don't want any of that "It's about faith" or "I was raised that way" stuff. I mean a rational, maybe even empirical, reason.

I don't know how to give a satisfactory answer to this.

How could you? It's kind of a loaded question.

It's a loaded question to ask somebody for a rational basis of their belief?

Quote from: M8A-ORD on January 02, 2016, 06:47:21 PM

It's a loaded question to ask somebody for a rational basis of their belief?

Well, yeah, because there is no rational basis. That's kinda the whole point of faith, as I understand it.

By forcing the exclusion of "it's faith" as a response, you've essentially rendered the question insatiable.

Thomas Aquinas would like a word.

I'm asking if he has a rational basis because I'd like to know if he has one. Even if faith is fundamentally irrational--in which case I would discard it anyway--it doesn't necessarily preclude the existence of rational corollaries he could mention. You can totally base your belief in God on rational arguments, and he could still call it faith if he wanted because it'd still be a belief in the supernatural; I'm saying "You just gotta believe" is not an appropriate response in this situation.

I could direct you to essays, books, podcasts, and theologists, but that's not what you're asking for.

I'd nevertheless be interested, particularly in books and podcasts.

I'm also curious about what you mean by a "supreme good". From my perspective, it seems like the usefulness of Christianity from a moral perspective comes from the superimposition of our values on top of it; I consider myself a cultural Christian, because it's almost impossible to disentangle Western culture from Christendom in a historical sense, but I see no reason I) why people  wouldn't have had correct moral intuitions prior to the Bible (which, I understand, you are not claiming) or II) why the institutions of Christianity are superior to any secular institutions we should be able to establish today (which seems more relevant to your point).

Quote from: Auld Lang Turkey on January 02, 2016, 07:11:29 PM

I could direct you to essays, books, podcasts, and theologists, but that's not what you're asking for.

I'd nevertheless be interested, particularly in books and podcasts.

The Liturgists is a great podcast hosted by an agnostic scientist with interesting guests each week. One I recently listened to (titled something along the lines of 'Radical Theology') had some unique arguments from a purely philosophical perspective.

Just Thinking (or Let My People Think) is a compilation of lectures and debates by one of my favorite theologist, Ravi Zacharias. Just pick subjects that sound interesting.

The Question of God is an interesting comparison of C. S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud. Lewis is an atheist turned Christian, and Freud was a theist turned atheist. It compares their arguments and lives.

Mere Christianity and The Great Divorce by C. S. Lewis, the former being a basic theological justification for Christianity, the latter presenting arguments as allegories.

Some others I can add when I get home because I can't think of others.

As for society developing a stronger moral system than Christianity, sure, I think it could. The obnoxious Christian part of me would explain that it's because God can exert his will through whomever he wants. But no, I wouldn't say that society couldn't come up with a more good system of morality than institutionalized religion. Separated from the influence of Christianity, I think that would be very unlikely.

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 02, 2016, 10:55:35 AM

Quote from: Traitorekd™ on January 02, 2016, 10:51:09 AM

most centrist users?

i think aria's the only one here who pretty much goes out of her way to be centrist

I don't have to go out of my way to end up in the middle, I just gravitate towards it most of the time.

The only thing worse than a choosing centrist is a filthy natural centrist. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Quote from: DAS THE HALLS on January 02, 2016, 08:08:45 PM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on January 02, 2016, 08:07:24 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 02, 2016, 10:55:35 AM

Quote from: Traitorekd™ on January 02, 2016, 10:51:09 AM

most centrist users?

i think aria's the only one here who pretty much goes out of her way to be centrist

I don't have to go out of my way to end up in the middle, I just gravitate towards it most of the time.

The only thing worse than a choosing centrist is a filthy natural centrist. REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Do I at least get brownie points for supporting FREEDOM?

Silly girl, if you supported freedom, you'd be a Libertarian.

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 02, 2016, 10:55:35 AM

Quote from: Traitorekd™ on January 02, 2016, 10:51:09 AM

most centrist users?

i think aria's the only one here who pretty much goes out of her way to be centrist

I don't have to go out of my way to end up in the middle, I just gravitate towards it most of the time.

there's just not a whole lot that you seem to have much conviction over (that i'm aware of)

you don't like debate much, either, so it makes me think that maybe you actively seek the middle ground

Quote from: Prime Megaten on January 02, 2016, 08:07:24 PM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 02, 2016, 10:55:35 AM

Quote from: Traitorekd™ on January 02, 2016, 10:51:09 AM

most centrist users?

i think aria's the only one here who pretty much goes out of her way to be centrist

I don't have to go out of my way to end up in the middle, I just gravitate towards it most of the time.

there's just not a whole lot that you seem to have much conviction over (that i'm aware of)

you don't like debate much, either, so it makes me think that maybe you actively seek the middle ground

Nah. I just don't know enough about something to make a stance or I'm indifferent in those situations. In the majority of cases that I'm not either of those, my position is moderate.

The middle ground is nice in that you aren't singled out, but you get a bit of flak from both sides for not taking a stronger position.