then the people should be able to leverage the government to discriminate downwards against a business for that exact same reason.
Lends itself to requiring an active LGBT friendly community, which can't always be the case.You're not going to get enough boycotters in a small town at the only deli there.
Except if they live in a small community and there's only a handful of places to get the service from.
You're yet to justify why the government should be able to decide who owns a business on the basis of their beliefs. You're essentially advocating for the government to force the private sector to conform to whatever line it chooses to take. Just because there's no nationalism involved, it doesn't make it any less authoritarian.
This argument does not hold when it comes to business owners deciding whether or not to perform a particular service. Business owners are not employed by the public.
Why is this pursuit of sexual equality any more important than both freedom of conscience and freedom of association? Two fundamental freedoms which have underpinned liberal societies for quite a while.
We're discussing businesses being forced to partake in a particular ceremony or event. Not somebody just trying to buy groceries.
Quote from: eggsalad on April 02, 2016, 04:23:13 PMQuote from: Mega Sceptile on April 02, 2016, 04:21:44 PMQuote from: Tsirist on April 02, 2016, 03:57:19 PMQuote from: Mega Sceptile on April 02, 2016, 03:56:16 PMAny business owner has the right to deny ANY business they please for any reason they want, no shirt, no Bicycles, no left knees, whatever they want. It's their PRIVATE company and assets, you or some guy down the street don't have any right to demand ANYTHING out of them. Its a shitty business practice, and that's why most don't do such, but it's completely their choice how they run their business and who is allowed in their establishment, and who is allowed to use their services. Doesnt matter who you are, or what you fuck, if the owner doesn't like you, get the hell out of the owner's establishment.so if we the people don't like a business why can't we kick them out of our establishment, i.e. the country? because a country isn't a business, they are two completely different things. trying to compare them is idiotic. but there are solutions to your problem, you CAN run them out of business by boycotting them. and if they arent out of business when you're done boycotting, then clearly you're a minority of the area and people that matter to the business owner still want that person's business there. Don't like it? then go to the competitor, and buy your goods there, If there isnt a competitor there, then either stay where you are and use amazon or something,move to accomedate for your needs, or if you're feeling ambitious, go to the sources of the business, and begin to compete with the business. Don't lie those options? tough shit. If you move into a desert and then complain that there's no water, it's your own damn fault isn't it?Literally the same as Islamic no-go zones fucking lmao. welcome to the real world tumblrina, would you like me to take your pacifier on the way out?seriously, if my raging dike of a sister can figure this shit out and move to the next town over, when the one she was in was a clearly hyper christian one that wouldn't take kindly to her faggotry, surely you can.
Quote from: Mega Sceptile on April 02, 2016, 04:21:44 PMQuote from: Tsirist on April 02, 2016, 03:57:19 PMQuote from: Mega Sceptile on April 02, 2016, 03:56:16 PMAny business owner has the right to deny ANY business they please for any reason they want, no shirt, no Bicycles, no left knees, whatever they want. It's their PRIVATE company and assets, you or some guy down the street don't have any right to demand ANYTHING out of them. Its a shitty business practice, and that's why most don't do such, but it's completely their choice how they run their business and who is allowed in their establishment, and who is allowed to use their services. Doesnt matter who you are, or what you fuck, if the owner doesn't like you, get the hell out of the owner's establishment.so if we the people don't like a business why can't we kick them out of our establishment, i.e. the country? because a country isn't a business, they are two completely different things. trying to compare them is idiotic. but there are solutions to your problem, you CAN run them out of business by boycotting them. and if they arent out of business when you're done boycotting, then clearly you're a minority of the area and people that matter to the business owner still want that person's business there. Don't like it? then go to the competitor, and buy your goods there, If there isnt a competitor there, then either stay where you are and use amazon or something,move to accomedate for your needs, or if you're feeling ambitious, go to the sources of the business, and begin to compete with the business. Don't lie those options? tough shit. If you move into a desert and then complain that there's no water, it's your own damn fault isn't it?Literally the same as Islamic no-go zones fucking lmao.
Quote from: Tsirist on April 02, 2016, 03:57:19 PMQuote from: Mega Sceptile on April 02, 2016, 03:56:16 PMAny business owner has the right to deny ANY business they please for any reason they want, no shirt, no Bicycles, no left knees, whatever they want. It's their PRIVATE company and assets, you or some guy down the street don't have any right to demand ANYTHING out of them. Its a shitty business practice, and that's why most don't do such, but it's completely their choice how they run their business and who is allowed in their establishment, and who is allowed to use their services. Doesnt matter who you are, or what you fuck, if the owner doesn't like you, get the hell out of the owner's establishment.so if we the people don't like a business why can't we kick them out of our establishment, i.e. the country? because a country isn't a business, they are two completely different things. trying to compare them is idiotic. but there are solutions to your problem, you CAN run them out of business by boycotting them. and if they arent out of business when you're done boycotting, then clearly you're a minority of the area and people that matter to the business owner still want that person's business there. Don't like it? then go to the competitor, and buy your goods there, If there isnt a competitor there, then either stay where you are and use amazon or something,move to accomedate for your needs, or if you're feeling ambitious, go to the sources of the business, and begin to compete with the business. Don't lie those options? tough shit. If you move into a desert and then complain that there's no water, it's your own damn fault isn't it?
Quote from: Mega Sceptile on April 02, 2016, 03:56:16 PMAny business owner has the right to deny ANY business they please for any reason they want, no shirt, no Bicycles, no left knees, whatever they want. It's their PRIVATE company and assets, you or some guy down the street don't have any right to demand ANYTHING out of them. Its a shitty business practice, and that's why most don't do such, but it's completely their choice how they run their business and who is allowed in their establishment, and who is allowed to use their services. Doesnt matter who you are, or what you fuck, if the owner doesn't like you, get the hell out of the owner's establishment.so if we the people don't like a business why can't we kick them out of our establishment, i.e. the country?
Any business owner has the right to deny ANY business they please for any reason they want, no shirt, no Bicycles, no left knees, whatever they want. It's their PRIVATE company and assets, you or some guy down the street don't have any right to demand ANYTHING out of them. Its a shitty business practice, and that's why most don't do such, but it's completely their choice how they run their business and who is allowed in their establishment, and who is allowed to use their services. Doesnt matter who you are, or what you fuck, if the owner doesn't like you, get the hell out of the owner's establishment.
Or are you going to admit that there are areas in which businesses need to adhere to standards, for the betterment of society?
No one is thought policing. You can continue practicing your religion. There arises a problem when your religion leads to unlawful practices.
Surely that makes the playing field even more unequal. You're essentially giving the government the power to shut down businesses for doing something the majority don't like. That seems like it would be a lot more harmful than a business turning away gay customers.
If you want to make this an issue of utilitarianism, I'm game. But so far you're yet to demonstrate just how the government having this specific power would be a net positive.
Quote from: Meta Cognition on April 02, 2016, 04:50:21 PMIf you want to make this an issue of utilitarianism, I'm game. But so far you're yet to demonstrate just how the government having this specific power would be a net positive. Does the government not already exercise it in the context of race?
EDIT: I don't have a good answer to your last question, and it's something I've been thinking over during the course of this discussion.
Yes, but so what? First and foremost, the fact that the government does this for race has literally no bearing on a utilitarian case for doing it with sexuality. Nor does the fact that we have prior regulations serve as a justification for any future regulation.
I'd also add that refusing to serve people on the basis of their sexuality should--in my opinion--be illegal just as it is for refusing to serve people on the basis of race. As I said, I'm talking about businesses providing a service for a specific and known event. This may not seem like an important distinction to you, but it's a line which can be drawn on precisely the utilitarian grounds you're using to try and justify the reverse. Some level of two-way tolerance is required, and that seems as reasonable a point as any to draw the line.
Quote from: Little Willie on April 02, 2016, 05:30:06 AMIn the South everyday is Jim Crow day. This is fucking ridiculous.How the fuck are store owners supposed to actively discriminate against homosexuals anyway? There is no real gay look, accent, or tell. I can only see this being a problem when someone walks into a store behaving obnoxiously, in which case an owner wouldn't be out of line telling a customer to leave, gay or otherwise.
In the South everyday is Jim Crow day.
How would you feel if you wanted something like a custom cake made for your dad but every place that would be doing them is refusing to all because you're a conservative?
Quote from: Little Willie on April 02, 2016, 06:39:17 PMHow would you feel if you wanted something like a custom cake made for your dad but every place that would be doing them is refusing to all because you're a conservative? I actually cannot emphasis enough how much I wouldn't give a fuck.
I highly doubt you would be saying that if you ended up getting refused a public service all because of some petty reason.
Quote from: SecondClass on April 01, 2016, 03:10:50 PMQuote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:08:33 PM LGBTQWTFBBQ Kek
Quote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:08:33 PM LGBTQWTFBBQ Kek
LGBTQWTFBBQ
Quote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:14:08 PMQuote from: SecondClass on April 01, 2016, 03:10:50 PMQuote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:08:33 PMThere is literally nothing wrong with this, and if you think there is you have no business calling yourself a liberal.Discrimination bad, equality good!This isn't a hard concept to figure out.Oh, I see, I see.So policies that could require people to act counter to their religious beliefs are okay because LGBTQWTFBBQ rights are more important than religious rights. Gotcha.You seem to be under the impression that LGBT rights and religious freedom are at odds, and the more LGBT rights there are, the less religious freedom you have.
Quote from: SecondClass on April 01, 2016, 03:10:50 PMQuote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:08:33 PMThere is literally nothing wrong with this, and if you think there is you have no business calling yourself a liberal.Discrimination bad, equality good!This isn't a hard concept to figure out.Oh, I see, I see.So policies that could require people to act counter to their religious beliefs are okay because LGBTQWTFBBQ rights are more important than religious rights. Gotcha.
Quote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:08:33 PMThere is literally nothing wrong with this, and if you think there is you have no business calling yourself a liberal.Discrimination bad, equality good!This isn't a hard concept to figure out.
There is literally nothing wrong with this, and if you think there is you have no business calling yourself a liberal.
Quote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:15:35 PMIs that not the entire point of laws in a liberal republic?I've never seen a more self fulfilling prophecy than the social conservatives freaking out and passing these bills under the auspices of protecting their religious freedom when in reality it's just discriminating against people or beliefs they don't particularly feel comfortable with.What happened to that one small line in the Deceleration of Independence people love to champion. The whole "All men are created equal" thing?Also, can you elaborate on your liberal comment in an earlier post? I wanted to know what you meant.
Is that not the entire point of laws in a liberal republic?
Quote from: Mad Max on April 01, 2016, 03:15:53 PMQuote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:14:08 PMQuote from: SecondClass on April 01, 2016, 03:10:50 PMQuote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:08:33 PMThere is literally nothing wrong with this, and if you think there is you have no business calling yourself a liberal.Discrimination bad, equality good!This isn't a hard concept to figure out.Oh, I see, I see.So policies that could require people to act counter to their religious beliefs are okay because LGBTQWTFBBQ rights are more important than religious rights. Gotcha.You seem to be under the impression that LGBT rights and religious freedom are at odds, and the more LGBT rights there are, the less religious freedom you have.Well, when those laws force you to go against your religion, yes it does.
Quote from: Luciana on April 01, 2016, 03:17:14 PMQuote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:15:35 PMIs that not the entire point of laws in a liberal republic?I've never seen a more self fulfilling prophecy than the social conservatives freaking out and passing these bills under the auspices of protecting their religious freedom when in reality it's just discriminating against people or beliefs they don't particularly feel comfortable with.What happened to that one small line in the Deceleration of Independence people love to champion. The whole "All men are created equal" thing?Also, can you elaborate on your liberal comment in an earlier post? I wanted to know what you meant.They were equal until they decided that they want to be a special snowflake.
Quote from: Alpha on April 03, 2016, 12:37:10 AMQuote from: Luciana on April 01, 2016, 03:17:14 PMQuote from: Yulius Kaisar on April 01, 2016, 03:15:35 PMIs that not the entire point of laws in a liberal republic?I've never seen a more self fulfilling prophecy than the social conservatives freaking out and passing these bills under the auspices of protecting their religious freedom when in reality it's just discriminating against people or beliefs they don't particularly feel comfortable with.What happened to that one small line in the Deceleration of Independence people love to champion. The whole "All men are created equal" thing?Also, can you elaborate on your liberal comment in an earlier post? I wanted to know what you meant.They were equal until they decided that they want to be a special snowflake.I asked him, not you. If I want your opinion on it, I'd ask for it.
Well, when those laws force you to go against your religion, yes it does.
Quote from: Little Willie on April 02, 2016, 07:22:22 PMI highly doubt you would be saying that if you ended up getting refused a public service all because of some petty reason.What the fuck are you smoking, chief? Getting a custom-made cake is not a public service.
Mississippi Legislature passes another Religious Freedom Bill
