Medical ethicists at Oxford argue killing newborns is no different to abortion

More Than Mortal · June 29, 2016, 10:28:44 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.HTML

it will never happen, they said

its a slippery slope fallacy, they said

DAS B00T x2 · June 29, 2016, 10:32:48 PM

Quote

The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.

This part I agree with.

Verbatim · June 29, 2016, 10:33:02 PM

It, truthfully and honestly, is no different.

It's just a lot harder to argue, because human adults are big emotional babies themselves.

Verbatim · June 29, 2016, 10:34:34 PM

Quote from: 卐ANUDDA SHOAH卐 on June 29, 2016, 10:32:48 PM

Quote
The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.
This part I agree with.

Yeah, but fuck that biased vernacular. "Killing" implies malicious intent. They're euthanizing it.

Hell, they're fucking saving it--but that language would be biased in my favor.

More Than Mortal · June 29, 2016, 10:35:34 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 29, 2016, 10:33:02 PM

It, truthfully and honestly, is no different.

In itself, I'd agree.

The wider implications, however, are not particularly endearing. A society in which the killing of newborns is commonplace is not really a society I think I'd want to live in; the kind of values regarding the value of life that could arise from such a practice are not particularly agreeable.

eggsalad · June 29, 2016, 11:21:16 PM

I'm in agreement.

I don't have much desire to see it taken into law, however, because the slope will keep sliding until we realize that our actual definition of "personhood" is either entirely arbitrary, or poorly distinguishable.

If being a person means some checklist of mental functions, then obviously some humans are inferior to some animals, and when a human becomes a person is uncertain. If being a person means being a human, then I think we are simply using the state of human society to justify the status quo.

Obviously considering crows to be persons and babies to be sub-human would cause a lot of problems for society. But all things considered, the things we value in humanity (intelligence, emotions, etc.) seem to lead us to those conclusions.

Elai · June 29, 2016, 11:23:38 PM

There is no difference, that's entirely the point.

Elai · June 29, 2016, 11:32:03 PM

Link doesn't work, by the way.

Tyger · June 30, 2016, 12:30:37 AM

You should be allowed to abort your child until the age of 5

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · June 30, 2016, 12:59:41 AM

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challengerX · June 30, 2016, 06:53:27 AM

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Turkey · June 30, 2016, 08:18:59 AM

I agree it's no different, but I don't condone either.

Link isn't working, btw

Verbatim · June 30, 2016, 08:49:50 AM

Quote from: challengerX on June 30, 2016, 06:53:27 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 29, 2016, 10:34:34 PM
Quote from: 卐ANUDDA SHOAH卐 on June 29, 2016, 10:32:48 PM
Quote
The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.
This part I agree with.
Yeah, but fuck that biased vernacular. "Killing" implies malicious intent. They're euthanizing it.

Hell, they're fucking saving it--but that language would be biased in my favor.
That type of language is what has accompanied the greatest massacres in history.

Neat.

challengerX · June 30, 2016, 09:13:18 AM

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Turkey · June 30, 2016, 09:28:06 AM

Quote

The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”.

They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”
Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.

Hey Verb, remember when Meta and I were talking about how stupid (and dangerous) it is to apply logic to ethics? (And by logic, I mean things like mathematical proofs or scientific rigor, not just common rationality). It's because of examples like scientists arguing from a logical ethicist view that "personhood" is anything more than a human construct used to oppress peoples throughout history.

Verbatim · June 30, 2016, 10:39:20 AM

Quote from: challengerX on June 30, 2016, 09:13:18 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 30, 2016, 08:49:50 AM
Quote from: challengerX on June 30, 2016, 06:53:27 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on June 29, 2016, 10:34:34 PM
Quote from: 卐ANUDDA SHOAH卐 on June 29, 2016, 10:32:48 PM
Quote
The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born.
This part I agree with.
Yeah, but fuck that biased vernacular. "Killing" implies malicious intent. They're euthanizing it.

Hell, they're fucking saving it--but that language would be biased in my favor.
That type of language is what has accompanied the greatest massacres in history.
Neat.
So like I said, you endorse the genocide of all humanity.

Oh yeah sure totally man.

Gatortag · June 30, 2016, 11:24:21 AM

Yeah... No. Completely disagree on this. A baby isn't a person just because it isn't grown up yet to think for itself and do for itself? Fuck that. Don't care what anyone says. This is wrong.

Desty · July 01, 2016, 11:47:00 AM

Quote from: Josh55886 on June 30, 2016, 11:24:21 AM

Yeah... No. Completely disagree on this. A baby isn't a person just because it isn't grown up yet to think for itself and do for itself? Fuck that. Don't care what anyone says. This is wrong.

If you're not willing to argue you shouldn't be in Serious. If you're seriously gonna be this childish in the future I'm gonna report you.

challengerX · July 01, 2016, 11:51:50 AM

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Desty · July 01, 2016, 12:16:44 PM

Quote from: challengerX on July 01, 2016, 11:51:50 AM

Quote from: Desty on July 01, 2016, 11:47:00 AM
Quote from: Josh55886 on June 30, 2016, 11:24:21 AM
Yeah... No. Completely disagree on this. A baby isn't a person just because it isn't grown up yet to think for itself and do for itself? Fuck that. Don't care what anyone says. This is wrong.
If you're not willing to argue you shouldn't be in Serious. If you're seriously gonna be this childish in the future I'm gonna report you.
Report him for his opinion?
That's childish.

Wow, I never thought about the hypocrisy. Really makes you think...

(are you serious? If you are you're mistaken)

More Than Mortal · July 01, 2016, 01:33:16 PM

Quote from: HrfulTurkie on June 30, 2016, 09:28:06 AM

Hey Verb, remember when Meta and I were talking about how stupid (and dangerous) it is to apply logic to ethics?

I don't.

Verbatim · July 01, 2016, 01:35:13 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 01, 2016, 01:33:16 PM

Quote from: HrfulTurkie on June 30, 2016, 09:28:06 AM
Hey Verb, remember when Meta and I were talking about how stupid (and dangerous) it is to apply logic to ethics?
I don't.

door's logical positivism thread

Turkey · July 01, 2016, 01:35:23 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on July 01, 2016, 01:33:16 PM

Quote from: HrfulTurkie on June 30, 2016, 09:28:06 AM
Hey Verb, remember when Meta and I were talking about how stupid (and dangerous) it is to apply logic to ethics?
I don't.

http://sep7agon.net/serious/tell-me-why-i-should-give-a-fuck-about-logical-positivism/

Mike · July 01, 2016, 08:17:40 PM

I've always found the idea of neonaticide morbidly fascinating.

It's kind of hard for me to treat neonaticide the same as murder, though.

Gatortag · July 02, 2016, 01:53:40 PM

Quote from: Desty on July 01, 2016, 11:47:00 AM

Quote from: Josh55886 on June 30, 2016, 11:24:21 AM
Yeah... No. Completely disagree on this. A baby isn't a person just because it isn't grown up yet to think for itself and do for itself? Fuck that. Don't care what anyone says. This is wrong.
If you're not willing to argue you shouldn't be in Serious. If you're seriously gonna be this childish in the future I'm gonna report you.

What are you talking about? All I said was I don't agree with it.

Desty · July 03, 2016, 03:33:41 AM

Quote from: Josh55886 on June 30, 2016, 11:24:21 AM

Don't care what anyone says.

Hmm?

Deleted · July 03, 2016, 05:40:49 PM

>These Oxford people
>These comments

Alpha · July 03, 2016, 08:26:36 PM

This is why I want to move to Russia.

Word Wizard · July 03, 2016, 11:09:53 PM

This could be averted by arguing abortion strictly from a female bodily autonomy perspective.

challengerX · July 04, 2016, 06:37:14 AM

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