Lord Jamar on transgenderism

Mordo · June 09, 2015, 03:37:16 PM

YouTube

Thoughts?

Personally I think he strawmans a bit but brings up a semblance of relative points.

But I guess everyone would flip shit if he was white.

Turkey · June 09, 2015, 03:50:20 PM

I'm not sure who this guy is, but he's basically equating transgenderism with playing dress-up. I think it goes a bit deeper than that, psychologically, but I don't think I could possibly care less about the Kardashian and Jenner families.

Mordo · June 09, 2015, 04:22:53 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on June 09, 2015, 03:50:20 PM

I'm not sure who this guy is, but he's basically equating transgenderism with playing dress-up. I think it goes a bit deeper than that, psychologically, but I don't think I could possibly care less about the Kardashian and Jenner families.

I'm not in entire agreement about transgenderism being a mental illness, but I do reconcile with his points about the Caitlyn Jenner situation being blown way out of proportion.

Like a dude wants to become a chick. Who fucking cares?

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 04:40:41 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on June 09, 2015, 03:50:20 PM

I'm not sure who this guy is

he's basically challengerX if he was also a rapper

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 04:58:22 PM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 04:22:53 PM

Like a dude wants to become a chick. Who fucking cares?

i don't think that's jamar's position at all, though--clearly, he appears to care a fuck of a lot about it

if he really didn't care, he wouldn't have discussed the issue for over thirteen minutes

challengerX · June 09, 2015, 05:22:15 PM

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eggsalad · June 09, 2015, 05:38:03 PM

He's some rapper and this is just some interview so I'm not going to insult his character. He's just ignorant of a how dysphoric disorders manifest and how they are effectively treated. His viewpoints of there having to be complete biological legitimacy behind being a woman or there being ways to "half-ass" or "cheat" it just produce pointless conflict and really seems like ways for him to just think less of people. People like Jenner wouldn't come out asking for legitimacy if mindsets like his didn't exist to make people so insecure about themselves to begin with. And he's pretty narrow minded on the sexuality topic.

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 05:42:07 PM

i just don't like the way he talks

he's trying to tell us "what's what," and it's fucking insufferable as fuck

Mad Max · June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM

dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.

Mordo · June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM

dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.

But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?

Mordo · June 09, 2015, 10:20:17 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 09, 2015, 05:42:07 PM

i just don't like the way he talks

he's trying to tell us "what's what," and it's fucking insufferable as fuck

Like I said, I'm not in complete agreement with his arguments.

But I do think his talking points towards the issue of transgenderism is a healthy dose of skepticism we should all take into consideration.

Verbatim · June 09, 2015, 10:21:54 PM

Yeah.

i mean, i'm not one to talk--i can get pretty preachy sometimes--but shit

BlackEye · June 09, 2015, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?

Isn't homosexuality psychological? Lol

Mordo · June 09, 2015, 10:32:48 PM

Quote from: BlackEye on June 09, 2015, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
Isn't homosexuality psychological? Lol

I don't know. We've yet to discover a gay gene, so it could very well be psychological.

What I'm trying to say is we should be skeptical of what transgenderism could potentially inflict on individuals. You can't arbitrarily declare it "something your born with" anymore than you can declare it a mental illness.

BlackEye · June 09, 2015, 10:52:09 PM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:32:48 PM

Quote from: BlackEye on June 09, 2015, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
Isn't homosexuality psychological? Lol
What I'm trying to say is we should be skeptical of what transgenderism could potentially inflict on individuals.

lol wouldn't it inflict sex changes? What's the big deal if someone wants to change their body? People get surgery/body mods all the time. I mean yeah it's a little weird but I don't really think it should be banned or anything.

Mad Max · June 10, 2015, 12:31:09 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?

the fact that your hormones are all screwy and your brain chemistry is different in transgenders would indicate it isn't just psychological.

challengerX · June 10, 2015, 07:32:04 AM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mordo · June 10, 2015, 08:14:04 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 10, 2015, 12:31:09 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
the fact that your hormones are all screwy and your brain chemistry is different in transgenders would indicate it isn't just psychological.

Isn't mental illness basically just brain chemistry?

But idk. I remain ambivalent about the whole transgender issue so I don't completely agree with the guy, just like I don't completely agree with the idea that it's a new civil rights movement. To be honest, I don't think we even know what it is yet.

Mordo · June 10, 2015, 08:16:04 AM

Quote from: BlackEye on June 09, 2015, 10:52:09 PM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:32:48 PM
Quote from: BlackEye on June 09, 2015, 10:30:04 PM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
Isn't homosexuality psychological? Lol
What I'm trying to say is we should be skeptical of what transgenderism could potentially inflict on individuals.
lol wouldn't it inflict sex changes? What's the big deal if someone wants to change their body? People get surgery/body mods all the time. I mean yeah it's a little weird but I don't really think it should be banned or anything.

I never advocated for gender surgery to be banned. If individuals want to have their cock sliced off without the use of tax dollars and the state, more power to them.

I just don't think we should be actively encouraging it.

Mr. Psychologist · June 10, 2015, 08:46:42 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:14:04 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 10, 2015, 12:31:09 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
the fact that your hormones are all screwy and your brain chemistry is different in transgenders would indicate it isn't just psychological.
Isn't mental illness basically just brain chemistry?

But idk. I remain ambivalent about the whole transgender issue so I don't completely agree with the guy, just like I don't completely agree with the idea that it's a new civil rights movement. To be honest, I don't think we even know what it is yet.

To some extent it is, but it's not completely reducible to it.
It very often plays a role but varies between illnesses and even within them.

Depression is a good model because you have the Serotonin/Dopamine/Melatonin balances to contrast with the cognitive aspects of it. You can very rarely treat it with one or the other, serious depression that is as opposed to mild depression. If you just chuck prozac at someone it's not going to teach them how to manage the condition so you end up with little overall improvement and frequent relapses.

Then you have personality disorders and the like, some of which are strongly psychological and some are closer to biological. It's a bit of clusterfuck really >.>

Something like Schizophrenia though, that has a pretty strong bio-chem-neuro-genetic basis and is rarely* something that would just spontaneously appear in an otherwise healthy individual and when it does appear you'd be looking at family history pretty much as soon as it's being diagnosed.

*I'd say never but you never say never.

Short answer: No, it's not <.<

Mordo · June 10, 2015, 08:50:42 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on June 10, 2015, 08:46:42 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 10, 2015, 12:31:09 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
the fact that your hormones are all screwy and your brain chemistry is different in transgenders would indicate it isn't just psychological.
Isn't mental illness basically just brain chemistry?

But idk. I remain ambivalent about the whole transgender issue so I don't completely agree with the guy, just like I don't completely agree with the idea that it's a new civil rights movement. To be honest, I don't think we even know what it is yet.
To some extent it is, but it's not completely reducible to it.
It very often plays a role but varies between illnesses and even within them.

Depression is a good model because you have the Serotonin/Dopamine/Melatonin balances to contrast with the cognitive aspects of it. You can very rarely treat it with one or the other, serious depression that is as opposed to mild depression. If you just chuck prozac at someone it's not going to teach them how to manage the condition so you end up with little overall improvement and frequent relapses.

Then you have personality disorders and the like, some of which are strongly psychological and some are closer to biological. It's a bit of clusterfuck really >.>

Something like Schizophrenia though, that has a pretty strong bio-chem-neuro-genetic basis and is rarely* something that would just spontaneously appear in an otherwise healthy individual and when it does appear you'd be looking at family history pretty much as soon as it's being diagnosed.

*I'd say never but you never say never.

Short answer: No, it's not <.<

So what do you think of Paul McHugh, the ex psychiatric professor at John Hopkins university, the leading university for transgender surgery, coming out and claiming that transgenderism is a mental illness?

Mr. Psychologist · June 10, 2015, 09:23:31 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:50:42 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on June 10, 2015, 08:46:42 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 10, 2015, 12:31:09 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
the fact that your hormones are all screwy and your brain chemistry is different in transgenders would indicate it isn't just psychological.
Isn't mental illness basically just brain chemistry?

But idk. I remain ambivalent about the whole transgender issue so I don't completely agree with the guy, just like I don't completely agree with the idea that it's a new civil rights movement. To be honest, I don't think we even know what it is yet.
To some extent it is, but it's not completely reducible to it.
It very often plays a role but varies between illnesses and even within them.

Depression is a good model because you have the Serotonin/Dopamine/Melatonin balances to contrast with the cognitive aspects of it. You can very rarely treat it with one or the other, serious depression that is as opposed to mild depression. If you just chuck prozac at someone it's not going to teach them how to manage the condition so you end up with little overall improvement and frequent relapses.

Then you have personality disorders and the like, some of which are strongly psychological and some are closer to biological. It's a bit of clusterfuck really >.>

Something like Schizophrenia though, that has a pretty strong bio-chem-neuro-genetic basis and is rarely* something that would just spontaneously appear in an otherwise healthy individual and when it does appear you'd be looking at family history pretty much as soon as it's being diagnosed.

*I'd say never but you never say never.

Short answer: No, it's not <.<
So what do you think of Paul McHugh, the ex psychiatric professor at John Hopkins university, the leading university for transgender surgery, coming out and claiming that transgenderism is a mental illness?

Hmm well it would depend on what he means by that but he's not necessarily wrong.

It depends on how you intepret mental illness, because if you go by it means that it's something wrong that can be cured and should be cured i.e reverting to normality then that's fine for some illnesses like depression but for other more complex ones it doesn't apply well.

It's an abnormality that can cause great distress to the person, some people need guidance and counselling to sort out their identity issues but others require more drastic treatment to solve the problem. I view the surgery and HRTs as the same sort of treatment as sticking someone on SSRIs, you are altering the physical form to ease the distress or pain of the mental form. The two obviously aren't the same thing, but it's a comparison >.>

So it is an illness of sorts, and the treatment is either counselling or surgery to solve the problem because there have been a fair few demonstrations of the problems with trying to force someone's mind into something that it doesn't recognise. A bit like trying to hammer a square block into the circle hole. Sure you can probably get it to fit but it'll fuck a lot of shit up on it's way in.

I'm of the general opinion that the mind is the valuable part of a human and is what makes them human. The body is a shell to encase the mind and keep it functioning, fed and safe but beyond that it's nothing more than a sack of flesh and bones. If in order to relieve the problems of the mind you have to alter the flesh, then provided it's assessed reasonably that the alteration will infact ease the problems of the mind then there shouldn't be a problem with doing so.

(But as a footnote, if the guy was implying that because it's a mental illness they shouldn't be allowed to make their own choices over their physical body in the same vein as you would deny a suicidal man access to a knife to butcher his wrists and throat then he's clearly barking up the wrong tree <.<

There are some mental illnesses that affect your judgement to the extent that you cannot be responsible for your own wellbeing but that doesn't mean that anyone with any form of illness is suddenly incapable of making rational decisions >.>)

Mad Max · June 10, 2015, 10:14:50 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:50:42 AM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on June 10, 2015, 08:46:42 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 10, 2015, 12:31:09 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
the fact that your hormones are all screwy and your brain chemistry is different in transgenders would indicate it isn't just psychological.
Isn't mental illness basically just brain chemistry?

But idk. I remain ambivalent about the whole transgender issue so I don't completely agree with the guy, just like I don't completely agree with the idea that it's a new civil rights movement. To be honest, I don't think we even know what it is yet.
To some extent it is, but it's not completely reducible to it.
It very often plays a role but varies between illnesses and even within them.

Depression is a good model because you have the Serotonin/Dopamine/Melatonin balances to contrast with the cognitive aspects of it. You can very rarely treat it with one or the other, serious depression that is as opposed to mild depression. If you just chuck prozac at someone it's not going to teach them how to manage the condition so you end up with little overall improvement and frequent relapses.

Then you have personality disorders and the like, some of which are strongly psychological and some are closer to biological. It's a bit of clusterfuck really >.>

Something like Schizophrenia though, that has a pretty strong bio-chem-neuro-genetic basis and is rarely* something that would just spontaneously appear in an otherwise healthy individual and when it does appear you'd be looking at family history pretty much as soon as it's being diagnosed.

*I'd say never but you never say never.

Short answer: No, it's not <.<
So what do you think of Paul McHugh, the ex psychiatric professor at John Hopkins university, the leading university for transgender surgery, coming out and claiming that transgenderism is a mental illness?

link?

Mordo · June 10, 2015, 10:18:08 AM

Quote from: Mad Max on June 10, 2015, 10:14:50 AM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:50:42 AM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on June 10, 2015, 08:46:42 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 10, 2015, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 10, 2015, 12:31:09 AM
Quote from: Madman Mordo on June 09, 2015, 10:12:01 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on June 09, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
dude's just an idiot who does not understand transgenderism, nor does he want to take the time to even begin to try to understand it, much less empathize with those effected by it.
But can you at not least consider the possibility that transgenderism may just be psychological?
the fact that your hormones are all screwy and your brain chemistry is different in transgenders would indicate it isn't just psychological.
Isn't mental illness basically just brain chemistry?

But idk. I remain ambivalent about the whole transgender issue so I don't completely agree with the guy, just like I don't completely agree with the idea that it's a new civil rights movement. To be honest, I don't think we even know what it is yet.
To some extent it is, but it's not completely reducible to it.
It very often plays a role but varies between illnesses and even within them.

Depression is a good model because you have the Serotonin/Dopamine/Melatonin balances to contrast with the cognitive aspects of it. You can very rarely treat it with one or the other, serious depression that is as opposed to mild depression. If you just chuck prozac at someone it's not going to teach them how to manage the condition so you end up with little overall improvement and frequent relapses.

Then you have personality disorders and the like, some of which are strongly psychological and some are closer to biological. It's a bit of clusterfuck really >.>

Something like Schizophrenia though, that has a pretty strong bio-chem-neuro-genetic basis and is rarely* something that would just spontaneously appear in an otherwise healthy individual and when it does appear you'd be looking at family history pretty much as soon as it's being diagnosed.

*I'd say never but you never say never.

Short answer: No, it's not <.<
So what do you think of Paul McHugh, the ex psychiatric professor at John Hopkins university, the leading university for transgender surgery, coming out and claiming that transgenderism is a mental illness?
link?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

SecondClass · June 10, 2015, 12:03:40 PM

Good on him. The fact that being a tranny is socially accepted in our society is sick.

Sandtrap · June 10, 2015, 01:17:03 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on June 10, 2015, 12:03:40 PM

Good on him. The fact that being a tranny is socially accepted in our society is sick.

I lol.

SecondClass · June 10, 2015, 01:21:27 PM

You shouldn't.

Sandtrap · June 10, 2015, 01:21:57 PM

Quote from: SecondClass on June 10, 2015, 01:21:27 PM

You shouldn't.

But, I will.

I lol.

Mordo · June 10, 2015, 01:22:32 PM

what's with this le no quoting maymay?

SecondClass · June 10, 2015, 01:23:04 PM

Doesn't make any sense to quote if you're right underneath someone.