My argument is that we need to research this properly and find better ways to deal with this.

Which is really fucking obnoxious (and stupid) to do if you don't actually have any ideas yourself.

That's probably one of the worst types of person. The type who bitches about some problem, talks about how the current solution is bullshit, but fails to present any specific alternatives himself. Yet thinks he's at all worthy to have a conversation with on the subject.

I don't claim to be an expert on transgenderism. What I do know is that gender reassignment surgery isn't helping enough to be justified as a treatment and that we need to tackle this a different way with therapy and medication. That's my argument.

I feel like you have misconceptions on how the process works. I don't know if you're oposed to HRT and transitioning in general because while your way of putting it (eg "pandering") implies you do, you're now more explicitly talking about SRS (which is a distinctly different subject that is controversial in the same way other dysphorias relate to medical practice, understandably so). 

In the event you're against HRT and general treatment, I think you need to consider that getting HRT is not an easy process. It requires a long string of appointments, assessments, and considerations with therapists to get a letter of approval that a psychiatrist then uses as consideration to prescribe hormone treatment. The process can take 6 months to a year (or more). The process for getting approved for sexual reassignment is an even queue and applicants are people who have been living as women full time for years. Truth is most transwomen don't even get SRS. Also note that, at least for transwomen, detransitioning is pretty easy outside breast reduction.

Umm, Chally, I #rekt your suicide argument in the other thread. Stop using it.

Categorising it as a "disease" isn't any different than the people bracketing it in as the new civil rights movement. One study doesn't disprove the plethora of other data that has been amalgamated on transgenderism.

The point is that there a lot of conflicting and compelling studies that argues in favour of both sides. You cannot possibly know any of the things you're asserting when it's a divisive issue even amongst the professionals.

If you were intellectually consistent you would take a neutral stance, like me.

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:02:29 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 10:48:54 AM

Categorising it as a "disease" isn't any different than the people bracketing it in as the new civil rights movement. One study doesn't disprove the plethora of other data that has been amalgamated on transgenderism.

The point is that there a lot of conflicting and compelling studies that argues in favour of both sides. You cannot possibly know any of the things you're asserting when it's a divisive issue even amongst the professionals.

If you were intellectually consistent you would take a neutral stance, like me.

Gender dysphoria is a disease like Alzheimer's.

Gender dysphoria is separate to transgenderism though. Gender dysphoria is the confusion and displeasure of being in the wrong gender, transgenderism is the desire to be the opposite gender. One brings discomfort, the other doesn't.

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:09:25 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 11:05:56 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:02:29 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 10:48:54 AM

Categorising it as a "disease" isn't any different than the people bracketing it in as the new civil rights movement. One study doesn't disprove the plethora of other data that has been amalgamated on transgenderism.

The point is that there a lot of conflicting and compelling studies that argues in favour of both sides. You cannot possibly know any of the things you're asserting when it's a divisive issue even amongst the professionals.

If you were intellectually consistent you would take a neutral stance, like me.

Gender dysphoria is a disease like Alzheimer's.

Gender dysphoria is separate to transgenderism though. Gender dysphoria is the confusion and displeasure of being in the wrong gender, transgenderism is the desire to be the opposite gender. One brings discomfort, the other doesn't.

I'm talking about gender dysphoria and how those people change genders to try and solve the problem.

So why conflate it with transgenderism when they're clearly two separate issues detailed by a plethora of psychiatrists?

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:16:03 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 11:12:45 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:09:25 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 11:05:56 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:02:29 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 10:48:54 AM

Categorising it as a "disease" isn't any different than the people bracketing it in as the new civil rights movement. One study doesn't disprove the plethora of other data that has been amalgamated on transgenderism.

The point is that there a lot of conflicting and compelling studies that argues in favour of both sides. You cannot possibly know any of the things you're asserting when it's a divisive issue even amongst the professionals.

If you were intellectually consistent you would take a neutral stance, like me.

Gender dysphoria is a disease like Alzheimer's.

Gender dysphoria is separate to transgenderism though. Gender dysphoria is the confusion and displeasure of being in the wrong gender, transgenderism is the desire to be the opposite gender. One brings discomfort, the other doesn't.

I'm talking about gender dysphoria and how those people change genders to try and solve the problem.

So why conflate it with transgenderism when they're clearly two separate issues detailed by a plethora of psychiatrists?

It's the same thing to me.

oh ok, you're trolling, got it.

First point - Try to clean it up in here, you can hold the discussion without flaming each other.

Second (relating to the discussion itself)
It's a disorder rather than a disease, because it's an intrinsic issue that the person has rather than an externally afflicted one. So a cure in the traditional sense is unlikely to ever exist, you can't cure autism for example. You can find ways to treat it and mitigate the symptoms though, to lessen the suffering the person has as a result of the condition and helping them to live a happier/successful life.

If someone is dysphoric and it isn't a temporary mindset, they've been seeing a therapist for a length of time with no notable headway in either direction and they are on the whole unhappy with their life as a male/female, then the remaining options for treatment dwindle down to reassignment.

At the present that is the only alternative treatment and for some people it can work well and they do go on to live a happier life, for others it isn't as successful but that can be down to other comorbid problems rather than just because it flat out doesn't work.

The appalling suicide rates I believe are down to the social issues and comorbid disorders rather than an inherent problem with the dysphoria. The best way to compare that is to look across cultures at how transgenderism is treated, damn near universally it is reviled and stigmatised but in the places that it isn't (somewhere in polynesia iirc was the example) whodathunkit that they live happy lives and don't end up just flat out killing themselves.

So who knows, one day we might find a magic pill cure for it which switches the mind to suit the body without any of the issues that past attempts to do this have had. Until then, the mind is the more valuable half of a human. The fleshy vessel that houses it is secondary to that person's existence. Cosmetic changes to it that make the mind happier shouldn't be an issue to anyone other than the person having those changes, but given that humans are the nosiest creatures on the planet when it comes to shoving their interests into other people's shit it's hardly all that surprising.

I never understood why trans people had to go to a therapist before treatment even before informed consent was available. I mean, if someone is unsure and needs counseling, then it makes sense, but it just seems like an unnessisary roadblock for people who don't want/need therapy.

Since you're an almost-psychologist, can you explain?

Quote from: Groot on July 29, 2015, 12:06:05 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on July 29, 2015, 07:05:25 AM

First point - Try to clean it up in here, you can hold the discussion without flaming each other.

Second (relating to the discussion itself)
It's a disorder rather than a disease, because it's an intrinsic issue that the person has rather than an externally afflicted one. So a cure in the traditional sense is unlikely to ever exist, you can't cure autism for example. You can find ways to treat it and mitigate the symptoms though, to lessen the suffering the person has as a result of the condition and helping them to live a happier/successful life.

If someone is dysphoric and it isn't a temporary mindset, they've been seeing a therapist for a length of time with no notable headway in either direction and they are on the whole unhappy with their life as a male/female, then the remaining options for treatment dwindle down to reassignment.

At the present that is the only alternative treatment and for some people it can work well and they do go on to live a happier life, for others it isn't as successful but that can be down to other comorbid problems rather than just because it flat out doesn't work.

The appalling suicide rates I believe are down to the social issues and comorbid disorders rather than an inherent problem with the dysphoria. The best way to compare that is to look across cultures at how transgenderism is treated, damn near universally it is reviled and stigmatised but in the places that it isn't (somewhere in polynesia iirc was the example) whodathunkit that they live happy lives and don't end up just flat out killing themselves.

So who knows, one day we might find a magic pill cure for it which switches the mind to suit the body without any of the issues that past attempts to do this have had. Until then, the mind is the more valuable half of a human. The fleshy vessel that houses it is secondary to that person's existence. Cosmetic changes to it that make the mind happier shouldn't be an issue to anyone other than the person having those changes, but given that humans are the nosiest creatures on the planet when it comes to shoving their interests into other people's shit it's hardly all that surprising.

I never understood why trans people had to go to a therapist before treatment even before informed consent was available. I mean, if someone is unsure and needs counseling, then it makes sense, but it just seems like an unnessisary roadblock for people who don't want/need therapy.

Since you're an almost-psychologist, can you explain?

It's my understanding that it comes down to being a safeguard to make sure that people don't undergo an irreversible form of surgery/change without it being established beforehand that it is the best course of action.

For those who simply want to change, they aren't unsure and are otherwise psychologically healthy I imagine it would be more of a formality than a specific 'You must have treatment before we let you have surgery' type of deal <.<

If you can imagine the situation where someone who thought they were sure underwent the reassignment and then a year or so later realised it wasn't what they really wanted, and a psych/therapist could have picked up on that... it'd be a pretty unpleasant predicament for them to find themselves in.

It still comes across as unnecessary to me. I'd completely get if therapy was strongly recommended or if the doctor/surgeon/whatever required a consultation before treatment, but required therapy is kind of extreme, not to mention how it turns the therapist into a gatekeeper.

Quote from: eggsalad on July 29, 2015, 09:00:37 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 08:16:02 AM

I don't claim to be an expert on transgenderism. What I do know is that gender reassignment surgery isn't helping enough to be justified as a treatment and that we need to tackle this a different way with therapy and medication. That's my argument.

I feel like you have misconceptions on how the process works. I don't know if you're oposed to HRT and transitioning in general because while your way of putting it (eg "pandering") implies you do, you're now more explicitly talking about SRS (which is a distinctly different subject that is controversial in the same way other dysphorias relate to medical practice, understandably so). 

In the event you're against HRT and general treatment, I think you need to consider that getting HRT is not an easy process. It requires a long string of appointments, assessments, and considerations with therapists to get a letter of approval that a psychiatrist then uses as consideration to prescribe hormone treatment. The process can take 6 months to a year (or more). The process for getting approved for sexual reassignment is an even queue and applicants are people who have been living as women full time for years. Truth is most transwomen don't even get SRS. Also note that, at least for transwomen, detransitioning is pretty easy outside breast reduction.

I really don't see how any of this is relevant to what I'm saying. There are long queues and it's a complicated process. Great.

The point is the whole process gives results that we shouldn't be happy with.

How is this not akin to saying "X% people die during chemotherapy, therefor it should be discontinued as a treatment for cancer". Can you even differentiate how many of those suicide victims would have not committed suicide had they not undergone surgery? Are you willing to tell X% of those satisfied with their operation that they should have not been allowed to undergo it?

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:19:29 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 11:18:22 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:16:03 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 11:12:45 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:09:25 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 11:05:56 AM

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 11:02:29 AM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 10:48:54 AM

Categorising it as a "disease" isn't any different than the people bracketing it in as the new civil rights movement. One study doesn't disprove the plethora of other data that has been amalgamated on transgenderism.

The point is that there a lot of conflicting and compelling studies that argues in favour of both sides. You cannot possibly know any of the things you're asserting when it's a divisive issue even amongst the professionals.

If you were intellectually consistent you would take a neutral stance, like me.

Gender dysphoria is a disease like Alzheimer's.

Gender dysphoria is separate to transgenderism though. Gender dysphoria is the confusion and displeasure of being in the wrong gender, transgenderism is the desire to be the opposite gender. One brings discomfort, the other doesn't.

I'm talking about gender dysphoria and how those people change genders to try and solve the problem.

So why conflate it with transgenderism when they're clearly two separate issues detailed by a plethora of psychiatrists?

It's the same thing to me.

oh ok, you're trolling, got it.

One has an actual disease, the other one has some other problem.

They're all things that need to be cured.

Gender dysphoria needs to be cured, yes. I don't see how transgenderism does if it brings happiness and expression to a lot of people (which it does by the way).

You've yet to provide a sound argument as to why transgenderism is an affliction. All you've done in this thread is whine about how icky you find it.

You should probably be careful. You're starting to sound like one of those Republicans you fervently detest.

DUDE IM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG LAMOA

Is the best you can actually do besides divide my posts up into epin quotes?

Quote from: career ender on July 29, 2015, 03:11:50 PM

Quote from: challengerX on July 29, 2015, 03:04:25 PM

DUDE IM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG LAMOA

Is the best you can actually do besides divide my posts up into epin quotes?

I couldn't care less about your opinions bro.

>he says as he replies to every single one of us