...and the country my family hailed from....

RHODESIA!!

It's unfortunately a county which has been largely forgotten and whose legacy has been overshadowed by South Africa's. I'll just give a brief rundown of its history.

So from the 1880's (assumption) until 1965, there was this British colony named "Southern Rhodesia", named after Cecil Rhodes himself(one of the biggest British Imperialists during the 2nd wave of Imperialism). But during the time between the end of wwII and 1965, most of the British colonies in Africa became independent one by one with Black governments taking power and instability following. Southern Rhodesia, being headed by Whites and having a viable enough percentage of the population (around 5-10%) to rule the country by themselves, unilaterally declared independent in 1965. This independence was completely unrecognized by the international community, and Southern Rhodesia (now named Rhodesia) was immediately slapped with massive sanctions which isolated it from the rest of the world. And I'll just say that the remaining 90% of the population (who were mostly from the Shona and Matabele ethnic groups) weren't very happy about suddenly being a part of an Apartheid state, and declared war.

Now we get to the Rhodesian Bush War, which was a brutal, 15-year long Guerilla War between the African insurgents (mostly belonging to the Chinese-backed ZANLA (what later became ZAPU, which is the ruling party today), and the Soviet Union-backed ZIPRA). The Rhodesian Army was one of the best counter-insurgency forces in the world (for real), but they didn't have much in the way of resupply. And they were against the two big rebel groups, ZANLA and ZIPRA, with a little bit of help from FRELIMO (a Mozambican organization). For the first few years of this war, the Rhodesian Army was holding its own just fine due to consistent aid from South Africa and Portugal (who were busy quelling independence movements in Angola and Mozambique). They managed to hold the country together for the most part despite the increasing amounts of terrorists pouring into the country. But then in 1975 (about 11 years into the war), Portugal had a revolution, their dictatorial Government collapsed, and the replacement one gave immediate independence to their African colonies despite the fact that they had practically won their wars militarily, and then you have Rhodesia left on their own pretty much. After 1975, it was just a matter of time before the Government collapsed, so most of my family had to leave the country then.

And then in 1980, the Government finally surrendered to the terrorists after some negotiations, Rhodesia became Zimbabwe and Mugabe has been running the show since (and he has destroyed the country completely of course). And what sucks about it most is that Rhodesia was one of the most industrialized and prosperous countries in Africa, and maintained consistent economic growth despite the war going on..

Oh yeah, and the US was one of the countries who helped to destroy Rhodesia, so fuck the USA!!!



I made this thread since practically nobody has any clue what Rhodesia even was, let alone know anything about it, and partially because Door wanted me to. >__>

So since I had relatives of various closeness who were in the Government, and others who served in the Rhodesian Army (and even some who fled the country to dodge the draft), I imagine that a few of you would be interested in knowing about that.

I feel like I have a decent understanding of the way race played into official policy in Rhodesia. While discriminatory, some policies seemed like they were intended more to keep the uneducated out of power, rather than overtly suppress the natives. It just so happened that all of the uneducated people were natives.

Would you say that this is true of white Rhodesians culturally, in your experience? Or is there genuine racism? Overt or otherwise?

It was more covert racism. They made all of those laws which sound equal on paper, knowing that the laws would affect the native Africans extremely disproportionately. And also, Africans weren't allowed to vote in elections until very late in the war. So the Government was definitely Apartheid. Though it was less obvious of an Apartheid system than South Africa's at first glance.

Hell, Ian Smith (the PM of Rhodesia, to those who don't know him) even said himself that he didn't believe that Africans should rule the country.

But overall, I'd say that Rhodesian Apartheid wasn't as brutal as South African Apartheid. But that was mainly because the whites in Rhodesia had to compromise somewhat given that they were 5% of the population. While South Africa's white population made up 25%, so they could do whatever the fuck they pleased.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 22, 2015, 12:35:01 AM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on April 22, 2015, 12:28:24 AM

I feel like I have a decent understanding of the way race played into official policy in Rhodesia. While discriminatory, some policies seemed like they were intended more to keep the uneducated out of power, rather than overtly suppress the natives. It just so happened that all of the uneducated people were natives.

Would you say that this is true of white Rhodesians culturally, in your experience? Or is there genuine racism? Overt or otherwise?

It was more covert racism. They made all of those laws which sound equal on paper, knowing that the laws would affect the native Africans extremely disproportionately. And also, Africans weren't allowed to vote in elections until very late in the war. So the Government was definitely Apartheid. Though it was less obvious of an Apartheid system than South Africa's at first glance.

Hell, Ian Smith (the PM of Rhodesia, to those who don't know him) even said himself that he didn't believe that Africans should rule the country.

Between the old government, Muzorewa's time as PM, and Mugabe's, which do you consider the most legitimate?

Well, Mugabe's Government obviously is the most legitimate since he never had to deal with an insurgency against his rule, has international legitimacy, and has membership of many IGOs. But Mugabe's also a fuckhead who deserves to burn in hell, so I'd rather wish that Ian Smith be in power since he actually ran the country fairly well (minus the war). But the war began started before Rhodesia even declared independence.

Do you feel like Rhodesia could have peacefully transitioned into a non-apartheid state reasonably soon without going to shit like it has under Mugabe?

It definitely had the potential. It was just the fact that there was an insurgency going on before Rhodesia even declared independence, so what the fuck could they do?

Do you feel that Zimbabwe's failures can be attributed to Mugabe's regime specifically or is there more at play?

Definitely Mugabe's regime. They inherited what was probably the 2nd most viable country in the continent (after South Africa), and they immediately began to plunder it of all its wealth from the moment Mugabe and his terrorist friends took power.

How do you feel about white nationalist movements within African countries, like that Boer independence movement, I forget the name? Do you think there a place for Europeans as a minority in Africa, or is their presence illegitimate? Within Zimbabwe specifically?

I don't agree with ethnic nationalist movements anywhere, but the presence of Europeans in Africa is completely legitimate. For example, many whites in South Africa have been there since the 1600's when the Dutch colonized it, and they are for all intents and purposes another tribe in South Africa. I mean, how could I say otherwise when I still have many relatives who are living in Africa still.

So how does your immediate family feel about the whole thing? Is it like the Lost Cause mindset here in the American South? Is there an attitude of acceptance? Are any of them indifferent?

Oh, they've moved on from the whole thing long ago, and I don't think that any of them really are trying to deny what happened. Even the ones who were in the Rhodesian Military. So they definitely aren't of the whole "The South will rise again" mindset. My relatives who were there were mostly immigrants from Mozambique or Greece anyways, so not much time to really form any significant bond with the country.

Do they still identify as Rhodesians, or have they mostly assimilated into the cultures of their new countries?

They've definitely assimilated in their new countries now. Most of them were in their teens or 20's when this happened, and they're now in their 50's and 60's for the most part. Though a lot of their culinary choices are South African. From my mom at least. She was one of the more resistant ones to leave, and when she first moved here, she hated it so much that she moved back to South Africa. But then, my grandmother who had already moved to the US got cancer, and my mom kind of returned voluntarily. :/

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 22, 2015, 01:16:44 AM

It sounds like your family is spread pretty far out internationally. Is this why you seem to be so much more interested in foreign policy and international politics than anyone else here?

Yeah, pretty much. All I have in the US is my immediate family (and my dad's family), but I'm not even remotely close to my dad's family. So I have absolutely zero reason or incentive to stay here whatsoever.

Where are you interested in going, if you're not sticking around?

Germany. I'm moving there next year for University, and hopefully I will be able to continue living there after that. It'd only be a concern financially since I'm an EU citizen.

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 22, 2015, 01:34:16 AM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on April 22, 2015, 01:29:00 AM

Where are you interested in going, if you're not sticking around?

Germany. I'm moving there next year for University, and hopefully I will be able to continue living there after that. It'd only be a concern financially since I'm an EU citizen.

[insert joke about Greek citizen owing money to a German institution here]

They're all free. Lol.

Hell, even Greek universities are free....

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 22, 2015, 01:39:52 AM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on April 22, 2015, 01:36:09 AM

Quote from: Not Comms Officer on April 22, 2015, 01:34:16 AM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on April 22, 2015, 01:29:00 AM

Where are you interested in going, if you're not sticking around?

Germany. I'm moving there next year for University, and hopefully I will be able to continue living there after that. It'd only be a concern financially since I'm an EU citizen.

[insert joke about Greek citizen owing money to a German institution here]

They're all free. Lol.

Hell, even Greek universities are free....

No such thing as free.

It may be free to you. But somebody is paying for it. This is getting off topic though.

Increased taxes, obviously.

Which aren't that bad when you're actually getting quality services from your Government. Not Greece though. Many of their public services are also trash like here.