With the idea of abrogation in the interpretation of the Koran, does early or peaceful verses losing precedence to later, more cruel, or warlike verses mean that IS personal are actually the truest Muslims in the world?

Why do Muslims claim that ISIS is not acting in an Islamic manner when their actions directly mirror the conquests of Muhammad in both scope and brutality?

Why do Muslims conflate race with religion? If we follow their logic, should it not be 'Christianophobic' to attack Christianity?

Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 19, 2015, 07:30:58 AM

With the idea of abrogation in the interpretation of the Koran, does early or peaceful verses losing precedence to later, more cruel, or warlike verses mean that IS personal are actually the truest Muslims in the world?

Does the Koran's last chapters proclaim violence over peace?  I know it and the Hadiths are a tangled mess of flopping between advocating barbaric violence and tolerance.  I just wouldn't want someone to state a random tolerance script because I wouldn't be able to refute it.

Well it seems you do not understand how the Quran was written then.

Also certain scripturea are only relevant to certain time periods. Especially the violent ones.

Remember certain verses were revealed during certain ecents and only focus on those events. Others aee universally binding no mattr the time.

Also each violent verse usually comes with a restraint clause with it.

There are though verses that pertain to war:
http:// [url]http://islam.ru/en/content/story/war-islam-ethics-rules[ /URL]
http:// [url]http://www.joelhayward.org/quranandwar.htm[ /URL]

If you took religion out of the Middle East, everyone would still hate each other.

Quote from: Winy on November 19, 2015, 09:52:50 AM

If you took religion out of the Middle East, everyone would still hate each other.

Tell me why I shouldn't interpret this as racist.

Because it wasn't racist at all?

If nobody in the Middle East was Muslim, they'd still have been bombarded with warfare for the last who-knows-how-many years, and they'd still despise the West. The conflict in that area is more complicated than "They're Muslim so they don't like each other." It's a history of issues with foreign nations that fostered that kind of violence.

Quote from: Winy on November 19, 2015, 09:52:50 AM

If you took religion out of the Middle East, everyone would still hate each other.

Tell me why I shouldn't interpret this as racist.

Ethnic hate is quite great over there. Blood divides the people mostly.

I know this cause I have lived in these places and noticed it. Racism is strong there among the people. For you, you see syrians, arabs etc. For a syrian he sees people of different tribes just by their facial features.

Allawites, Arabs, Kurdish etc. All their nationalistic extremists hatw the other groups. Most of these hates have mainly gained more fuel during colonialism and after. Though it still existed under the previouse empires.

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/02/06/3-quranic-verses-that-prove-isis-is-un-islamic/36096

http://rasoulallah.net/en/articles/article/11992

Also when at War, the prophet pushed certain rules on his commanders at all times.

Npw take the sources in the way you want and make your choice. Yes religionofpeace and answerimg islam has a different view but hwre is the other side for you to read and discuss.

These don't seem like very good sources.  The first one labels Sam Harris a "New Atheist extremist" and anyone who believes the Koran is violent as an anti-Islam extremist.  The three verses also do not do a convincing job.

1. Qur’an 22:40: “Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged.”

It's not hard to see how some muslims have turned scrutiny of their religion into "War on Islam", and justifying violence.

2. Qur’an 22:41: “Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is God’ — And if God did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is oft commemorated.”

Thus, the Qur’an defines “have been wronged,” as a person who has met two more conditions. The first: one who has been unjustly driven from his own home. The second: being driven out on account of faith.

War has driven muslims from their homes.  Throw in the "War on Islam" and the Wests Islamophobia and you got yourself some justifications for war.

3. Qur’an 2:257: “There shall be no compulsion in religion.”

This is just a straight up logical contradiction present in the Koran. It's incoherent to say that there is no compulsion in your faith and at the same time know that the lack thereof results in eternal suffering.  Spending an eternity suffering rather than an eternity in paradise will obviously compel people to have faith.

Quote from: Risay117 on November 19, 2015, 09:35:11 AM

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/02/06/3-quranic-verses-that-prove-isis-is-un-islamic/36096

http://rasoulallah.net/en/articles/article/11992

Also when at War, the prophet pushed certain rules on his commanders at all times.

Npw take the sources in the way you want and make your choice. Yes religionofpeace and answerimg islam has a different view but hwre is the other side for you to read and discuss.

These don't seem like very good sources.  The first one labels Sam Harris a "New Atheist extremist" and anyone who believes the Koran is violent as an anti-Islam extremist.  The three verses also do not do a convincing job.

Quote

1. Qur’an 22:40: “Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged.”

It's not hard to see how some muslims have turned scrutiny of their religion into "War on Islam", and justifying violence.

Quote

2. Qur’an 22:41: “Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is God’ — And if God did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is oft commemorated.”

Quote

Thus, the Qur’an defines “have been wronged,” as a person who has met two more conditions. The first: one who has been unjustly driven from his own home. The second: being driven out on account of faith.

War has driven muslims from their homes.  Throw in the "War on Islam" and the Wests Islamophobia and you got yourself so justifications for war.

Quote

3. Qur’an 2:257: “There shall be no compulsion in religion.”

This is just a straight up contradiction present in the Koran. It's incoherent to say that there is no compulsion in your faith and at the same time know that the lack thereof results in eternal suffering.  Spending an eternity suffering rather than an eternity in paradise will obviously compel people to have faith.

That last verse was one of the last verses that were released by the prophet. And has more to do with how you are not supposed to force others to avcept islam.

As to justificatiob for war it exists if you place it in certain contexts. The war in Iraq is a memory that recent generations of muslim look at aa justification for war.

Only issue though is that killing of elderly, children and women is not allowed. Especially kids as islam considers kids (keep in mind before puberty) to be pure of wrong doings.

That last verse was one of the last verses that were released by the prophet. And has more to do with how you are not supposed to force others to avcept islam.

A quick google search shows me that the line is also taken out of context, here is the full thing:

2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”
2:257: “Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever].”

He is essentially saying that believers better keep believing and non-believers better start believing.

add on to it this verse:

18:29: “Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!”

That sure seems like compulsion to me.

As to justification for war it exists if you place it in certain contexts. The war in Iraq is a memory that recent generations of muslim look at as justification for war.

So are you agreeing with me?

Especially kids as islam considers kids (keep in mind before puberty) to be pure..

Muhammad wants the kids intact so he can marry and rape them.

Quote from: Risay117 on November 19, 2015, 10:32:21 AM

That last verse was one of the last verses that were released by the prophet. And has more to do with how you are not supposed to force others to avcept islam.

A quick google search shows me that the line is also taken out of context, here is the full thing:

Quote

2:256: “There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”
2:257: “Allah is the protecting guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are the rightful owners of the Fire [of Hell]. They will abide therein [forever].”

He is essentially saying that believers better keep believing and non-believers better start believing.

add on to it this verse:

Quote

18:29: “Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!”

That sure seems like compulsion to me.

Quote

As to justification for war it exists if you place it in certain contexts. The war in Iraq is a memory that recent generations of muslim look at as justification for war.

So are you agreeing with me?

Quote

Especially kids as islam considers kids (keep in mind before puberty) to be pure..

Muhammad wants the kids intact so he can marry and rape them.

Punishment in the hereafter is not a reason to force in present day. It says that if they disbelieve they will answer on the day of judgement.

So if I ask did he give permission to muslims to force conversion or to wait till the day of judgement.

To say that the prophet likes having sex with kids is the greatest misconception. His first and favourote wife eas older than him. Aisha was more of a marriage of politcal cause than of love. As this was used to create stronger ties with his second in command Abu Bakr.

Also one also makes a diservice to Aisha by calling her a sex slave and ignoring what she accomplished on the political front in the post muhammed era. Evem during Muhammed time she became quite a powerful political figure head.

I can agree with you on justification but it depends on certain circumstances that have to be stretched. Though the very conduct they perform immediately considers the "jihad" unislamic. Remember the battle should only he focused on expelling the army.

Some rules are you are not allowed to kill, women children and elderly, those who seek refuge in places of worship or their home.