if gender is a social construct

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · June 02, 2015, 11:21:16 PM

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Verbatim · June 02, 2015, 11:30:18 PM

you can't

Mad Max · June 02, 2015, 11:46:25 PM

I can't say I know enough about the social construct argument to say...

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 03, 2015, 02:47:39 AM

Saying "it's a social construct" isn't the discussion-ender people seem to think it is. A social construct is an idea with a set of values determined by a group of people. We could apply this to "justice", for instance, and track how the meaning and application of the concept has changed throughout the years. It doesn't mean that justice doesn't exist, just that it's not something "concrete" like physics or neurochemistry.

Gender is the same thing. It "exists", but what "it" is, however, is determined by the set group you're observing. Fifty years ago, it would have be equivalent to a person's sex. Nowadays, it tends to (since it can still vary, depending on the observed group) refer to a person's tendencies as they pertain to a set notion of what a boy or girl acts like, thinks like, dresses like, etc.

Pendulate · June 03, 2015, 03:17:10 AM

Is there any evidence that you can?

Being transgender =/= being born transgender

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 03:21:25 AM

your gender has everything to do with your conditioning
how you were brought up

it is impossible to answer the question "what does it mean to be a boy/girl" without just listing off a bunch of stereotypes, which, while stereotypes all may have a kernel of systemic truth to them, there is no trait in our DNA that is inherently male or female

none that i have seen, anyway

you can talk about how women have a "maternal instinct" that tends to make them tender, but there are indeed tender, "effeminate" guys out there, too--and that's because their environment melded them into such

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 03, 2015, 03:22:30 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 03, 2015, 03:17:10 AM

Is there any evidence that you can?

Being transgender =/= being born transgender

The whole thing is slippery, as it is. It's likely that it's influenced by both nature (as in predispositions) and nurture (as in the environment you developed in, obviously), but beyond studying promising fringe cases (of what is already considered relatively fringe itself) such as cases of twins in which transgenderism is developed, we've got little to nothing.

Pendulate · June 03, 2015, 03:27:52 AM

As in, both twins became transgender?

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 03, 2015, 03:50:44 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 03, 2015, 03:27:52 AM

As in, both twins became transgender?

Yes, and no. Cases where one developed this specific kind of body dysmorphia would signify genetic reasons; cases where both developed it and one or both had a lasting case (as in, a severe enough case to which it leads to treatment) would hint more toward environmental factors (depending on how they were raised, and how closely linked their experiences were).

It's basically the same problem as schizophrenia research. And if I were to hazard a guess, it probably has the same general developmental origin: some percentage are genetic, while it is still predominantly an environmental disorder. Without proper research, though, this is just he-said-she-said.

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 03:52:17 AM

Quote from: Prime Servitor on June 03, 2015, 03:50:44 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on June 03, 2015, 03:27:52 AM
As in, both twins became transgender?
Yes, and no. Cases where one developed this specific kind of body dysmorphia would signify genetic reasons; cases where both developed it and one or both had a lasting case (as in, a severe enough case to which it leads to treatment) would hint more toward environmental factors (depending on how they were raised, and how closely linked their experiences were).

i would think it would be the other way around, unless i'm not thinking

edit:
i assumed you were speaking of identical twins, which i automatically think of whenever i read "twins"

🍁 Aria 🔮 · June 03, 2015, 04:00:18 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 03, 2015, 03:52:17 AM

Quote from: Prime Servitor on June 03, 2015, 03:50:44 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on June 03, 2015, 03:27:52 AM
As in, both twins became transgender?
Yes, and no. Cases where one developed this specific kind of body dysmorphia would signify genetic reasons; cases where both developed it and one or both had a lasting case (as in, a severe enough case to which it leads to treatment) would hint more toward environmental factors (depending on how they were raised, and how closely linked their experiences were).
i would think it would be the other way around, unless i'm not thinking

Twins are never exact duplicates, most obvious example being fingerprints. If only one twin in a common environment ended up developing Body Dysmorphic Disorder, it would mean that it was genetic. Meanwhile, if it was developed by both twins in a common environment, it'd mean that it was most likely environmental.

I purposely include "in a common environment"; raised in different environment leaves too much to variables. A person in San Francisco and a person in Dublin can have different experiences that lead to the same mental disorders.

Kitsune 狐 · June 03, 2015, 05:18:09 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 02, 2015, 11:30:18 PM

you can't

Verb I'm surprised!
Sex - depends on reproduction system
Gender - social characteristics fem or masculine

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 06:39:19 AM

So nobody here remembers when that one crazy shrink cut some kid's dick of as a baby, had him raised as a girl and it failled spectacularly?

No? We're just gonna believe whatever Tumbr says? OK, just checking.

DAS B00T x2 · June 03, 2015, 07:10:52 AM

Gender roles are social. Gender I'm leaning more towards a psysical construct based on neurochemical makeup these days.
There's a difference between the two.

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 01:49:53 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 06:39:19 AM

So nobody here remembers when that one crazy shrink cut some kid's dick of as a baby, had him raised as a girl and it failled spectacularly?

No? We're just gonna believe whatever Tumbr says? OK, just checking.

in what way did it "fail spectacularly"

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 01:57:00 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 03, 2015, 01:49:53 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 06:39:19 AM
So nobody here remembers when that one crazy shrink cut some kid's dick of as a baby, had him raised as a girl and it failled spectacularly?

No? We're just gonna believe whatever Tumbr says? OK, just checking.
in what way did it "fail spectacularly"

The doctor lost his career and was essentialy labled 'Supreme High Emperor of the Sick Fucks' by eveyone outside the tarnsexual community for using a kid's life as a sciene project which included molesting the poor guy, and the kid realised he was a boy on his own, and life was destroyed to the point he later killed himself.

I think it's safe to qualify that as ''failed spectacularly

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 01:57:00 PM

The doctor lost his career and was essentialy labled 'Supreme High Emperor of the Sick Fucks' by eveyone outside the tarnsexual community, and the kid's life was destroyed to the point he later killed himself

That's interesting and all, but that really doesn't have much to do with anything regarding this subject. Did the experiment itself produce results, or was it just a complete disaster from the start? Because if it was, it doesn't really bear mention.

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 02:08:23 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 03, 2015, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 01:57:00 PM
The doctor lost his career and was essentialy labled 'Supreme High Emperor of the Sick Fucks' by eveyone outside the tarnsexual community, and the kid's life was destroyed to the point he later killed himself
That's interesting and all, but that really doesn't have much to do with anything regarding this subject. Did the experiment itself produce results, or was it just a complete disaster from the start? Because if it was, it doesn't really bear mention.

Seing as the experement failed because of the fact that the boy realised he was exactly that, and knew something was wrong for the longest time, yeah, i'd say that was one hell of a result.

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 02:13:34 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:08:23 PM

the boy realised he was exactly that

biologically

Quote

and knew something was wrong for the longest time

well, no shit, he was castrated

that's not a result
that doesn't suggest anything about gender not being a social construct

we already know that guys have dicks, and when you cut them off, that creates problems

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 02:15:46 PM

see, he fucked up on the castration part--that wasn't necessary

you can raise a male as a stereotypical female, and yeah, guess what
he's gonna think of himself as a girl--at least, the social dictation of a girl

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 02:27:18 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 03, 2015, 02:13:34 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:08:23 PM
the boy realised he was exactly that
biologically
Quote
and knew something was wrong for the longest time
well, no shit, he was castrated

that's not a result
that doesn't suggest anything about gender not being a social construct

we already know that guys have dicks, and when you cut them off, that creates problems

Exept for the fact that he was raised and treated as a girl by litreraly everyone, was taught that his castration was only a cosmetic issue, had any information to the contrary suppressed, and was even offered a sex chage disguised as cosmetic surgury. Dispite all this he still recognised something was wrong with his whole life and was miserable being raised as a girl before his dumbfuck parents took their heads out of their asses and told him the truth.

I need to find the names so I can give the facts better

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 02:29:13 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 03, 2015, 02:15:46 PM

see, he fucked up on the castration part--that wasn't necessary

you can raise a male as a stereotypical female, and yeah, guess what
he's gonna think of himself as a girl--at least, the social dictation of a girl

Thats exactly what the sick fuck tried to do, and it failed. He realised he was a boy before he knew it for a fact.

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 02:35:23 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:27:18 PM

Dispite all this he still recognised something was wrong with his whole life and was miserable being raised as a girl before his dumbfuck parents took their heads out of their asses and told him the truth.

Again, it was because he was castrated. Duh. A completely unnecessary procedure that no transfolk ever really have to go through.

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:29:13 PM

Thats exactly what the sick fuck tried to do, and it failed. He realised he was a boy before he knew it for a fact.

Again, because he was castrated. This isn't difficult.

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 02:43:11 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 03, 2015, 02:35:23 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:27:18 PM
Dispite all this he still recognised something was wrong with his whole life and was miserable being raised as a girl before his dumbfuck parents took their heads out of their asses and told him the truth.
Again, it was because he was castrated. Duh. A completely unnecessary procedure that no transfolk ever really have to go through.
Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:29:13 PM
Thats exactly what the sick fuck tried to do, and it failed. He realised he was a boy before he knew it for a fact.
Again, because he was castrated. This isn't difficult.

That woldnt matter if gender was a social construct. And it isnt even like he knew held been castrated. he was a newborn. To him what his (former) penis was was just a mis-shappen vag. He had no idea he had a penis untill they told him.

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 02:44:39 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:43:11 PM

That woldnt matter if gender was a social construct. And it isnt even like he knew held been castrated. he was a newborn. To him what his (former) penis was was just a mis-shappen vag. He had no idea he had a penis untill they told him.

You just said that he "knew something was wrong".

And yes, genital mutilation does matter, and it's irrelevant to whether gender is a social construct.
Which it is. And that particular case doesn't fucking change that.

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 02:59:27 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on June 03, 2015, 02:44:39 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:43:11 PM
That woldnt matter if gender was a social construct. And it isnt even like he knew held been castrated. he was a newborn. To him what his (former) penis was was just a mis-shappen vag. He had no idea he had a penis untill they told him.
You just said that he "knew something was wrong".

And yes, genital mutilation does matter, and it's irrelevant to whether gender is a social construct.
Which it is. And that particular case doesn't fucking change that.

Finaly I found it. Names are David Reimer ( the victim) and John Money (the shrink). It's just about universaly agreed that the results contradict the whole ''social construct argument.

More Than Mortal · June 03, 2015, 03:02:04 PM

No, gender isn't a social construct. I've no doubt certain social pressures exert significant influence over gendered behaviour, but all the evidence I've seen points to a fairly solid biological basis of the genders.

For instance, girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, while being raised as girls, still exhibited higher-than-normal levels of masculine behaviour. A study of eighteen male "pseudohermaphrodites" whose genitals were deformed at birth (and so were raised as girls), all exhibited masculine behaviour apart from one who was however institutionalised for gender-related mental illness. Another study of fourteen male babies who were re-assigned female at birth due to cloacal exstrophy conducted a follow-up for the subjects between the age of five and twelve; eight of them identified as boys, and all of them had at least moderately masculine traits.

This is, of course, complemented by the economic research which shows a higher degree of auto-segregation among gender egalitarian countries, as well as the higher degree of personality divergence in industrialised, egalitarian societies.

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 03:12:11 PM

Quote from: Majestic Star Dragon on June 03, 2015, 02:59:27 PM

It's just about universaly agreed that the results contradict the whole ''social construct argument.

Not by me.

Deleted · June 03, 2015, 03:14:33 PM

you'd think i'd knw better by now.

Verbatim · June 03, 2015, 03:17:16 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on June 03, 2015, 03:02:04 PM

Just what the hell is "masculine behavior"?

Oh, right, it's something that we've come to define through social gravity.