I think it's time to educate Kinder

 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
No, protectionism is not good. I'm going to attempt to try and show you why.

Protectionism doesn't really protect much, except the jobs of the workers in specific industries - which isn't a good thing. It doesn't help consumers, since free trade contributes to consumer surplus which is basically the difference between the cheapest product and its more expensive iteration. If you put tariffs on the foreign products to make them more expensive, you're reducing the surplus and thus harming consumers. It doesn't protect the productive capacity of the industry either - just shelters it from global competition. People always are wondering how to stop monopolies from developing, well, newsflash: free trade is literally the best cure.

Economists are unanimous on the benefits and necessity of free trade.

Now then, one which is a little more controversial. Corporation tax. The data, as I've said, is dubious at best but generally corporate tax seems to harm workers more, and thus they have more to gain from reductions in corporate tax. Now, it could be that you're not necessarily a marketeer and just incredibly pro-business, supporting the entrepreneurs in their endeavours to crush the soul of the poor proletariat, but I don't think you're that much of a sperglord. As to how much corporate taxes actually harm workers wages, well it's thought that they pay around 60%.

I don't know where you get this bollocks that firms have to pay the American government for the privilege of doing business in America, but it's strikingly authoritarian. Surely consumers should be deciding who to do business with?

Even though I think the slightest indication that it hurts workers should be enough, I'll add another point free of charge. Taxes on corporations (since corporations aren't people) have a much higher deadweight loss than income or property taxes, and if necessary, could probably be replaced by a land value tax.

All right, I'm done.
Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 04:47:14 AM by Meta Cognition


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This is pathetic, Cheat
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Haha, it's funny because no one's opinions here matter.
All opinions are not created equal.


Reciffo_Smmoc | Ascended Unstoppable!
 
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Comms Officer is a freaking retard.
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I don't think it's possible to educate Kinder, my friend.
We all have our dreams.


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We all have our dreams.

And this is why the term pie in the sky exists.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Kinder's online; I feel morally obligated to bump this.


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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Not really necessary. I can see the tumbleweeds making their way through this forum.
It's a case of morality dude.

You said it yourself: God's work.


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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I'm curious as to whether Kinder is even possible of not being an autist. It's as if he radiates autism by simply existing.

I reckon there's a tattoo on his forearm saying "Subject Zero".


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No, free-trade agreements are bad. Here's why

For starters the North American Free-Trade Agreement (NAFTA) has shown to be an atrocity to not only the working class but to the environment as well. The U.S has seen a staggering drop of over 765,000 jobs in result to NAFTA and when these Americans do find new jobs, there wages are less than 23% than their previous wage. On top of that, from 1995-1999, Mexican manufacturing wages have dropped 21% and the number of Mexican citizens in poverty has increased. The U.S-Mexican border is also home to maquiladora zones where pollution and improper disposal of toxic waste results in birth defects

The NAFTA experience demonstrates how basic labor rights and the interests of working families are eroded by "free trade" agreements that lack enforceable labor protections. Corporations move high-paying jobs to countries with lower wages and bust unionization drives with threats to transfer production abroad. According to a Cornell University study, since NAFTA two-thirds of manufacturing and communications companies faced with union organizing campaigns threatened workers with moving their jobs abroad. This "race-to-the-bottom" will accelerate under the FTAA as corporations pit exploited workers in Mexico against even more desperate workers in countries such as Haiti and Guatemala. Already, Mexico is losing maquiladora jobs to countries with cheaper wages. In the last two years, some 280,000 jobs have vanished with the closure of more than 350 maquiladoras.

The export-driven growth model promoted by "free trade" agreements and the policies of the World Bank and the IMF have destroyed ecosystems around the world. Under this unsustainable model, many countries in the Global South cut down their forests, overfish their waters and exploit other natural resources to pay off foreign debts. Since NAFTA, 15 US wood product companies have set up operations in Mexico, and logging there has increased dramatically. In the Mexican state of Guerrero, 40 percent of the forests have been lost in the last eight years, and massive clear cutting has led to soil erosion and habitat destruction.

As I said yesterday, Corporate taxes are good. Corporate profits depend on tax-financed public goods: healthy and educated workforce; good infrastructure; publicly enforced respect for contracts and property rights, and so on. When corporations avoid or evade tax, legally or illegally, they free ride on the backs of the rest of us. Stop taxing them, and you savagely undermine political community.

 It's called giving back to what they were given.

The Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy has even stated the incidence of corporate tax fell mostly on capital owners, not employees. It added that corporate income tax was among the most progressive taxes, because stock ownership was heavily concentrated among the wealthiest taxpayers.

Oh, ever heard of corporate personhood? it's an American legal concept that a corporation may be recognized as an individual in the eyes of the law. This doctrine forms the basis for legal recognition that corporations, as groups of people, may hold and exercise certain rights under the common law and the U.S. Constitution



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Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 12:43:58 PM by Reciffo_Smmoc


 
 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
No, free-trade agreements are bad. Here's why

For starters the North American Free-Trade Agreement (NAFTA) has shown to be an atrocity to not only the working class but to the environment as well. The U.S has seen a staggering drop of over 765,000 jobs in result to NAFTA and when these Americans do find new jobs, there wages are less than 23% than their previous wage. On top of that, from 1995-1999, Mexican manufacturing wages have dropped 21% and the number of Mexican citizens in poverty has increased. The U.S-Mexican border is also home to maquiladora zones where pollution and improper disposal of toxic waste results in birth defects
Sources please? And make sure it's not a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Regardless, even if this were true, the unanimity of professional economists must mean something to you? Not to mention, you completely ignored consumer surplus, which is pretty much the biggest benefit.

I also should mention that comparative advantage pretty much proves that free trade outweighs any losses with its benefits. By as much as 100 to 1!

Quote
The NAFTA experience demonstrates how basic labor rights and the interests of working families are eroded by "free trade" agreements that lack enforceable labor protections. Corporations move high-paying jobs to countries with lower wages and bust unionization drives with threats to transfer production abroad. According to a Cornell University study, since NAFTA two-thirds of manufacturing and communications companies faced with union organizing campaigns threatened workers with moving their jobs abroad. This "race-to-the-bottom" will accelerate under the FTAA as corporations pit exploited workers in Mexico against even more desperate workers in countries such as Haiti and Guatemala. Already, Mexico is losing maquiladora jobs to countries with cheaper wages. In the last two years, some 280,000 jobs have vanished with the closure of more than 350 maquiladoras.
You do realise low wages isn't the only factor firms take into account, right? The institutions and infrastructure that America offers will only ever be ignored when wage demands are literally too high, unions are creating too much of a deadweight loss or when the country being outsourced to has sufficiently low wages with sufficiently developed infrastructure.

Not to mention, if production is cheaper in those other countries: good! We want labour to be re-allocated to the most efficient places.

Quote
The export-driven growth model promoted by "free trade" agreements and the policies of the World Bank and the IMF have destroyed ecosystems around the world. Under this unsustainable model, many countries in the Global South cut down their forests, overfish their waters and exploit other natural resources to pay off foreign debts. Since NAFTA, 15 US wood product companies have set up operations in Mexico, and logging there has increased dramatically. In the Mexican state of Guerrero, 40 percent of the forests have been lost in the last eight years, and massive clear cutting has led to soil erosion and habitat destruction.
You as a libertarian should know tragedy of the commons is due to poor definition and enforcement of property rights, not free trade. . . Of course places are going to be over-fished - or whatever resource is there - if the owner doesn't actually own the land and the labour is entitled to keep whatever it reaps.

Oh, and you also ignored how free trade protects against monopolies.

Quote
As I said yesterday, Corporate taxes are good. Corporate profits depend on tax-financed public goods: healthy and educated workforce; good infrastructure; publicly enforced respect for contracts and property rights, and so on. When corporations avoid or evade tax, legally or illegally, they free ride on the backs of the rest of us. Stop taxing them, and you savagely undermine political community.
I already told you that it could be replaced by a land value tax, which has virtually no deadweight loss and, as it happens, is incredibly progressive.

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It's called giving back to what they were given.

I know right! They have to pay for giving consumers what they want!

Quote
The Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy has even stated the incidence of corporate tax fell mostly on capital owners, not employees. It added that corporate income tax was among the most progressive taxes, because stock ownership was heavily concentrated among the wealthiest taxpayers.
And I've cited two studies which dispute that, suggesting the evidence is dubious at best. Forget the incidence of the taxation, the fact that it has a large deadweight loss is reason enough to have it replaced with a better alternative.

Also, that study doesn't say anything about incidence, it says: "As the chart on this page shows, the
wealthiest one percent of Americans held just over half of all corporate stock in 2007, while the poorest ninety percent of Americans owned just ten percent of the total."


That doesn't tell you who's paying for the tax. It just assumes that whoever holds the most stock is actually bearing the brunt, which is a ludicrous assumption to make. Sure, the people with the stock are writing the cheques, but are you really going to ignore the fact that lower wages to the workers could easily serve as a substitute to make it easier on the people writing those cheques.

Holding stock =/= feeling the burden of the tax.

Quote
Oh, ever heard of corporate personhood? it's an American legal concept that a corporation may be recognized as an individual in the eyes of the law. This doctrine forms the basis for legal recognition that corporations, as groups of people, may hold and exercise certain rights under the common law and the U.S. Constitution
Funnily enough, a legal quirk doesn't give corporations the actual ability to pay taxes. Only people will ever pay taxes.

I'm actually off to a party now, so I'll reply when I get home.
Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 01:13:03 PM by Meta Cognition


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I have no idea what is going on in here.

tl;dr people thinking their opinions are fact


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
tl;dr people thinking their opinions are fact
tl;dr kinder ignoring overwhelming evidence.


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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 06:43:22 PM by Kiyohime


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Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 06:43:57 PM by Kiyohime


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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Okay this is bordering on harassment. Challenger I'd advise not posting pictures of other members without their permission.

Keep this about politics, no personal insults.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
So, is he actually going to respond to my argument or just keep pretending he's a libertarian?


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So, is he actually going to respond to my argument or just keep pretending he's a libertarian?
You asking me?


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
You asking me?

Not specifically no.

Unless Kinder is like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

I'm not sure which half you'd be though >.>


 
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Not specifically no.

Unless Kinder is like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

I'm not sure which half you'd be though >.>
Oh, no I thought you where implying that he was PMing me about this.

Please don't compare me and him.