I just watched the movie of Ender's Game

More Than Mortal · December 09, 2014, 03:41:57 PM

It's some heavy fucking stuff; really makes you think.

Has anybody else seen it? What did you think?

Does how you win matter? Or is it simply a case of realpolitik, and winning is the only end. I must admit I hesitate at the idea of genocide, even in the preservation of the human species. Is such an act justifiable? For those who don't know:

Spoiler

Ender plays what he believes is a simulation, but is actually the real battle. He ends up completely destroying the homeworld of the Formics - a race of insectoid aliens associated via hive-mind - and becoming depressed at his actions.

I'm still trying to collate all of the information.

Sandtrap · December 09, 2014, 03:43:33 PM

If you liked the movie, you should read the books amigo. While you may not be a fan of sci-fi, card has a lot of ideas and concepts in the background.

Ushan · December 09, 2014, 03:46:01 PM

There's better Sci-Fi in my opinion.

Tackel · December 09, 2014, 03:48:17 PM

I've seen it. The book does a lot better job with the physiological stuff Ender goes through, of course. You should give the series a read if you liked the movie.

DAS B00T x2 · December 09, 2014, 03:49:01 PM

But did we really have to kill them all? Were they still a threat? Couldn't one day, a peaceful option be found? What was the queen trying to communicate to Ender?

That's pretty much what I was thinking at the end.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · December 09, 2014, 03:56:27 PM

Orson Scott Card sounds like a dickwad, but I still want to watch Ender's Game regardless.

Tackel · December 09, 2014, 03:56:31 PM

Quote from: DAS B(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ on December 09, 2014, 03:49:01 PM

But did we really have to kill them all? Were they still a threat? Couldn't one day, a peaceful option be found? What was the queen trying to communicate to Ender?

That's pretty much what I was thinking at the end.

Ender's game is a series. The movie was based on the first book. I assume they'll make sequel.

Quote

Couldn't one day, a peaceful option be found?

Now you're sounding like a communist.

Mr. Psychologist · December 09, 2014, 03:57:45 PM

It seemed like there was a chance for a diplomatic solution, but considering they fucked shit up on earth without any real provocation... It's a little hard to sympathise with ~~Tyranids~~ whatever the bugs were called.

But genocide is still genocide...

I think, they should have attempted a diplomatic solution through ender (I haven't read the books yet, just seen the film on netflix) rather than just flying out to their homeworld and doing the exact same thing that they did to us <.<

Ushan · December 09, 2014, 04:05:53 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 09, 2014, 03:57:45 PM

It seemed like there was a chance for a diplomatic solution, but considering they fucked shit up on earth without any real provocation... It's a little hard to sympathise with ~~Tyranids~~ whatever the bugs were called.

But genocide is still genocide...

I think, they should have attempted a diplomatic solution through ender (I haven't read the books yet, just seen the film on netflix) rather than just flying out to their homeworld and doing the exact same thing that they did to us <.<

Actually, what the humans did it was worse, because if I recall correctly, they were only left with one egg at the end, which seemed like infinitely less than what the humans had at the end of the first Human-Bugger conflict.

PSU · December 09, 2014, 04:07:04 PM

Read the book in 9th grade and then saw the movie when it came out.

Lovely film.

Sandtrap · December 09, 2014, 04:13:27 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 09, 2014, 03:57:45 PM

It seemed like there was a chance for a diplomatic solution, but considering they fucked shit up on earth without any real provocation... It's a little hard to sympathise with ~~Tyranids~~ whatever the bugs were called.

But genocide is still genocide...

I think, they should have attempted a diplomatic solution through ender (I haven't read the books yet, just seen the film on netflix) rather than just flying out to their homeworld and doing the exact same thing that they did to us <.<

Spoiler

The thing about the Formics is that there was no chance for diplomacy. Due to the fact that the formics were so radically different as a life form, their definition of sentient lifeforms was different. They couldn't communicate with humans because they didn't believe they were sentient in the first place.

Later on in the books, Ender encounters the last queen, and learns the truth. The formics didn't know. And it was only at the end of the war, when they were on their doorstep dying, that they understood.

And the formics didn't have time to find a way to contact Humanity. Because they are telepaths. And Humans were so alien to them in mind, that they couldn't break the barriers. So they left a paper trail for Ender to follow. Because his mind was different. His mind is almost as alien as the Formics, able to do complex mathematical situations on par with the entire hive mind.

A lit bit of plot outline spoilers if you want to read the books. The formics never had a chance to make an agreement and ceasefire with Humanity because of the differences in specie's mental functions.

Doctor Doom · December 09, 2014, 04:16:21 PM

If this is your first experience with EG, and you didn't read the book, I truly pity you.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 09, 2014, 03:41:57 PM

Does how you win matter? Or is it simply a case of realpolitik, and winning is the only end.

Winning is what matters in war. The means of doing so are irrelevant, unless of course people uninvolved are suffering for it.

Quote

I must admit I hesitate at the idea of genocide, even in the preservation of the human species. Is such an act justifiable?

"Every alternative is preferable," to quote Doctor Church. If it's a battle in which one side will exterminate the other, methods lose meaning. The only thing that matters is that the other side is the one that's gone in the end and not yours.

Quote

Spoiler
Ender plays what he believes is a simulation, but is actually the real battle. He ends up completely destroying the homeworld of the Formics - a race of insectoid aliens associated via hive-mind - and becoming depressed at his actions.

The novel explains this much better and leaves more of an impact, in my opinion.

Doctor Doom · December 09, 2014, 04:17:35 PM

Quote from: Tackelberry on December 09, 2014, 03:56:31 PM

Ender's game is a series. The movie was based on the first book. I assume they'll make sequel.

Yeah, but virtually everyone who has read EG agrees it worked better as a stand-alone novel.

Mr. Psychologist · December 09, 2014, 05:00:40 PM

Quote from: Ushan on December 09, 2014, 04:05:53 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 09, 2014, 03:57:45 PM
It seemed like there was a chance for a diplomatic solution, but considering they fucked shit up on earth without any real provocation... It's a little hard to sympathise with ~~Tyranids~~ whatever the bugs were called.

But genocide is still genocide...

I think, they should have attempted a diplomatic solution through ender (I haven't read the books yet, just seen the film on netflix) rather than just flying out to their homeworld and doing the exact same thing that they did to us <.<

Actually, what the humans did it was worse, because if I recall correctly, they were only left with one egg at the end, which seemed like infinitely less than what the humans had at the end of the first Human-Bugger conflict.

Yeah it kind of was <.<

Mr. Psychologist · December 09, 2014, 05:03:05 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on December 09, 2014, 04:13:27 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 09, 2014, 03:57:45 PM
It seemed like there was a chance for a diplomatic solution, but considering they fucked shit up on earth without any real provocation... It's a little hard to sympathise with ~~Tyranids~~ whatever the bugs were called.

But genocide is still genocide...

I think, they should have attempted a diplomatic solution through ender (I haven't read the books yet, just seen the film on netflix) rather than just flying out to their homeworld and doing the exact same thing that they did to us <.<

Spoiler
The thing about the Formics is that there was no chance for diplomacy. Due to the fact that the formics were so radically different as a life form, their definition of sentient lifeforms was different. They couldn't communicate with humans because they didn't believe they were sentient in the first place.

Later on in the books, Ender encounters the last queen, and learns the truth. The formics didn't know. And it was only at the end of the war, when they were on their doorstep dying, that they understood.

And the formics didn't have time to find a way to contact Humanity. Because they are telepaths. And Humans were so alien to them in mind, that they couldn't break the barriers. So they left a paper trail for Ender to follow. Because his mind was different. His mind is almost as alien as the Formics, able to do complex mathematical situations on par with the entire hive mind.

A lit bit of plot outline spoilers if you want to read the books. The formics never had a chance to make an agreement and ceasefire with Humanity because of the differences in specie's mental functions.

Hmm yeah, quite troubling really. I don't mind mild spoilers, but would diplomacy have worked through ender?

Jocephalopod · December 09, 2014, 05:16:39 PM

the books were ten times better, if you've seen the movie before reading the series it kind of spoils it.

Sandtrap · December 09, 2014, 05:23:53 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 09, 2014, 05:03:05 PM

Quote from: Sandtrap on December 09, 2014, 04:13:27 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 09, 2014, 03:57:45 PM
It seemed like there was a chance for a diplomatic solution, but considering they fucked shit up on earth without any real provocation... It's a little hard to sympathise with ~~Tyranids~~ whatever the bugs were called.

But genocide is still genocide...

I think, they should have attempted a diplomatic solution through ender (I haven't read the books yet, just seen the film on netflix) rather than just flying out to their homeworld and doing the exact same thing that they did to us <.<

Spoiler
The thing about the Formics is that there was no chance for diplomacy. Due to the fact that the formics were so radically different as a life form, their definition of sentient lifeforms was different. They couldn't communicate with humans because they didn't believe they were sentient in the first place.

Later on in the books, Ender encounters the last queen, and learns the truth. The formics didn't know. And it was only at the end of the war, when they were on their doorstep dying, that they understood.

And the formics didn't have time to find a way to contact Humanity. Because they are telepaths. And Humans were so alien to them in mind, that they couldn't break the barriers. So they left a paper trail for Ender to follow. Because his mind was different. His mind is almost as alien as the Formics, able to do complex mathematical situations on par with the entire hive mind.

A lit bit of plot outline spoilers if you want to read the books. The formics never had a chance to make an agreement and ceasefire with Humanity because of the differences in specie's mental functions.

Hmm yeah, quite troubling really. I don't mind mild spoilers, but would diplomacy have worked through ender?

Remember. They didn't have time. It was already too late. The Formics actually tried to communicate with him. But they couldn't get the message across. So they left a paper trail for him. they left a paper trail based off of his memories. Ender's game is a lot of different angles to look at. One of them being the tragedy of miscommunication and understanding.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · December 09, 2014, 06:06:10 PM

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ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · December 09, 2014, 06:07:04 PM

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R o c k e t · December 09, 2014, 06:56:15 PM

Haven't read the book, but the movie was great!

The way we win does matter, to me. Especially in the setting of that story.

Spoilers below:

Spoiler

Those aliens were trying to colonize, and humanity attacked them. So we really started the conflict. They left and never returned. But what did humanity do, out of fear of an invasion? Destroy their homeworld, and what they believed was their entire species. They didn't attack, they only defended themselves.

Jocephalopod · December 09, 2014, 07:23:33 PM

Quote from: RocketRudolph287 on December 09, 2014, 06:56:15 PM

Haven't read the book, but the movie was great!

The way we win does matter, to me. Especially in the setting of that story.

Spoilers below:
Spoiler
Those aliens were trying to colonize, and humanity attacked them. So we really started the conflict. They left and never returned. But what did humanity do, out of fear of an invasion? Destroy their homeworld, and what they believed was their entire species. They didn't attack, they only defended themselves.

read the books m80, it's not as simple as that

R o c k e t · December 09, 2014, 07:30:52 PM

Quote from: Jocephalopod on December 09, 2014, 07:23:33 PM

Quote from: RocketRudolph287 on December 09, 2014, 06:56:15 PM
Haven't read the book, but the movie was great!

The way we win does matter, to me. Especially in the setting of that story.

Spoilers below:
Spoiler
Those aliens were trying to colonize, and humanity attacked them. So we really started the conflict. They left and never returned. But what did humanity do, out of fear of an invasion? Destroy their homeworld, and what they believed was their entire species. They didn't attack, they only defended themselves.

read the books m80, it's not as simple as that

I basically super-condensed the movie. But yeah there is more to it.

Turkey · December 09, 2014, 08:37:50 PM

Ender's Game is my favorite book series. The movie wasn't great, but that final scene battle was amazing and Asa Butterfield as Ender was absolutely spot-on. The problem with the movie is that so much of the story is in Ender's head, not to mention half of it was some outdated stuff about his siblings taking over politics via the internet.

I could go on for days about Ender's Game. I'm really glad you liked the movie, and I agree that its premise is something much more profound than what you find in typical young adult hero movies. Go read the series. Children of the Mind will demolish your brain.

Turkey · December 09, 2014, 08:39:36 PM

Quote from: TrussingDoor on December 09, 2014, 06:07:04 PM

Really good read

http://peachfront.diaryland.com/enderhitlte.html

I'm in my phone right now, but I've torn that article apart before. It's a huge load of crap.

Edit: Back on my computer now.

tl;dr version:

-The first section is some irrelevant jabs at the quality of Ender's Game and Card's writing, which is almost universally praised.
-Next he compares Ender to Hitler because Hitler was a third child and so was Ender. Obviously the same, right? Nevermind that 'thirds' are an annoyingly common theme in sci-fi.
-Next he talks about some misogyny in Speaker for the Dead by saying Ender was excusing Marcao's abuse of Novinha due to her adultery, when in fact the entire point of his Speaking was to reveal ugly truths to a community that idolized Marcao and refused to see what was happening
-Oh and Hitler was 37 when he fell in love and Ender got married at 37, so obviously they're the same
-Necessity of genocide: here's the crux of this argument. Ender's genocide, as a metaphor for Hitler's, was excused because he was a kid and it was necessary. And Hitler believed that he was doing good, so it's obviously the same thing...somehow.

So here's the thing: Ender is never, ever painted as a hero or a savior. Initially after the battle the governments of Earth vie for his control, but very quickly decide to just try to kill him and all the other kids instead. And later in Speaker for the Dead, he's universally hated and deplored, thanks to a book written about the Formics, by Ender, from a psychic connection to the Hive Queen. Ender doesn't write the book because he wants to be forgiven, he writes it because he fully understands the weight and evil of what he did and knows he'll never be forgiven (though he later is). Despite the shoddy parallels between Hitler and Ender, at the end of the day the Ender series is a condemnation of Ender's actions and a constant reminder of the need to understand the people we claim to hate. A central theme of the series is that hate and war stems from ignorance.

And what's most damning is that the author of the article backpedals and acts pissy by admitting he jumped the gun on what Card was intending (his entire article is shit on by Xenocide), but that it's just, like, his opinion, man.

aREALgod · December 09, 2014, 10:13:06 PM

I like the series about Ender as a whole and currently on Xenocide and looking forward to Children of the Mind. Oddly enough, I did not like Ender's Game. Something about the book was off for me.

Statefarm · December 10, 2014, 05:59:04 AM

The Movie sucked, read the book.

Septy · December 10, 2014, 06:04:58 AM

Hated the book, movie was alright.

How you win does matter, or you are no different from your opponent.

Elegiac · December 10, 2014, 12:49:59 PM

They left out Peter's rise to Hegemon.

Camnator · December 10, 2014, 10:34:37 PM

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i am karjala takaisin · December 10, 2014, 10:40:49 PM

Quote from: Poop on December 10, 2014, 10:34:37 PM

I just want to know the concept behind the weapon which destroyed the entire planet.

made it so that molecular bonds could not be formed

or something like that