I have a question for leftists who defend Islam.

challengerX · November 11, 2015, 09:09:47 AM

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DAS B00T x2 · November 11, 2015, 09:12:50 AM

Because the conservative right demonizes it, so the left has to champion Islam to play identity politics.

challengerX · November 11, 2015, 09:14:13 AM

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Alternative Facts · November 11, 2015, 09:25:59 AM

Same way I don't think all Christians are against gay marriage or a woman's right to choose. Even if the vocal majority, and those with actual political power, hold their beliefs that may seem extremist and not fit for the modern world, there are many who do not share such viewpoints. I'm not going to vilify them as well when they are likely already vilified from within their community.

Mordo · November 11, 2015, 09:32:08 AM

Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:25:59 AM

Same way I don't think all Christians are against gay marriage or a woman's right to choose. Even if the vocal majority, and those with actual political power, hold their beliefs that may seem extremist and not fit for the modern world, there are many who do not share such viewpoints. I'm not going to vilify them as well when they are likely already vilified from within their community.

But what about the extremely disconcerting amount of Muslims who believe in a lot of wacky shit like apostasy killings and vilification of homosexuality?

I mean, I get where your coming from by not painting broadchurch assessments on an entire group of people, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that no, the extremist Muslims aren't in the minority. I'd actually go as far as to say they're in the slim majority.

Alternative Facts · November 11, 2015, 09:44:34 AM

Quote from: Mordo on November 11, 2015, 09:32:08 AM

Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Same way I don't think all Christians are against gay marriage or a woman's right to choose. Even if the vocal majority, and those with actual political power, hold their beliefs that may seem extremist and not fit for the modern world, there are many who do not share such viewpoints. I'm not going to vilify them as well when they are likely already vilified from within their community.
But what about the extremely disconcerting amount of Muslims who believe in a lot of wacky shit like apostasy killings and vilification of homosexuality?

I'm well aware of that. Still doesn't change my stance.

Mr. Psychologist · November 11, 2015, 09:46:03 AM

I've been joke shilling so long that it's kinda become a reflex.

Islam is pretty shite, but I'm not gonna treat someone badly because they are a muslim. Even if you disagree with their beliefs, a bit of respect for the person as a baseline isn't really all that bad. If said person turns out to be a fanatic, then to hell with them of course.

Same shit with any religion, if the person is religious then shitting on their beliefs because you find them repellent is pretty rude. Challenge them sure, but don't do it because of a hateboner you can barely hide.

Mordo · November 11, 2015, 10:37:38 AM

Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:44:34 AM

Quote from: Mordo on November 11, 2015, 09:32:08 AM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Same way I don't think all Christians are against gay marriage or a woman's right to choose. Even if the vocal majority, and those with actual political power, hold their beliefs that may seem extremist and not fit for the modern world, there are many who do not share such viewpoints. I'm not going to vilify them as well when they are likely already vilified from within their community.
But what about the extremely disconcerting amount of Muslims who believe in a lot of wacky shit like apostasy killings and vilification of homosexuality?

I'm well aware of that. Still doesn't change my stance.

So what if 99% of Muslims hated the concept of homosexuality to their very core? Would you still tolerate their beliefs?

Being anti Islamic does not mean being anti Arab. Islam is a bullshit religion with bullshit practices rooted in homophobia, paedophilia and warmongering. You of all people should not be turning a blind eye to this.

challengerX · November 11, 2015, 10:38:19 AM

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Alternative Facts · November 11, 2015, 11:14:05 AM

Quote from: Mordo on November 11, 2015, 10:37:38 AM

Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:44:34 AM
Quote from: Mordo on November 11, 2015, 09:32:08 AM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Same way I don't think all Christians are against gay marriage or a woman's right to choose. Even if the vocal majority, and those with actual political power, hold their beliefs that may seem extremist and not fit for the modern world, there are many who do not share such viewpoints. I'm not going to vilify them as well when they are likely already vilified from within their community.
But what about the extremely disconcerting amount of Muslims who believe in a lot of wacky shit like apostasy killings and vilification of homosexuality?

I'm well aware of that. Still doesn't change my stance.
So what if 99% of Muslims hated the concept of homosexuality to their very core? Would you still tolerate their beliefs?

Being anti Islamic does not mean being anti Arab. Islam is a bullshit religion with bullshit practices rooted in homophobia, paedophilia and warmongering. You of all people should not be turning a blind eye to this.

Me of all people? What, because I'm gay, I should automatically vilify a religion of more than a billion people because they have stances that differ from my sexual orientation?

We've had this exact same discussion before, and I'm simply going to refer you to Psy's post in here: I am not going to deem everyone who follows the religion as evil extremists before getting to know them, as there are many moderate Muslims who do not want to be associated with the extremists who are extremely vocal. I am not going to call for the eradication of the religion, the mass murder of Muslims that some call for. I am going to disagree with some of their stances, and study the religion more to understand it.

But no - my sexual orientation is not going to be a basis for more hatred against a sect of people.

challengerX · November 11, 2015, 11:41:12 AM

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gats · November 11, 2015, 11:50:46 AM

Challenging Islamism isn't just about extremists, it's about opposing an entire theocratic world-view that has no place in the modern world.

MyNameIsCharlie · November 11, 2015, 12:50:02 PM

I don't defend Islam per se. I object to the lumping an entire religion with its extremists. All Christians don't support the WBC or those who blow up or set fire to abortion clinics. I'd object just as heavily to Christians being told they're no different from their extremists.

Now, are there things in Islam and societal norms in Islamic countries that I personally find repugnant? Yes. There's just not much I can do to get them to change their behavior.

Mordo · November 11, 2015, 02:06:53 PM

Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 11:14:05 AM

Quote from: Mordo on November 11, 2015, 10:37:38 AM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:44:34 AM
Quote from: Mordo on November 11, 2015, 09:32:08 AM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 11, 2015, 09:25:59 AM
Same way I don't think all Christians are against gay marriage or a woman's right to choose. Even if the vocal majority, and those with actual political power, hold their beliefs that may seem extremist and not fit for the modern world, there are many who do not share such viewpoints. I'm not going to vilify them as well when they are likely already vilified from within their community.
But what about the extremely disconcerting amount of Muslims who believe in a lot of wacky shit like apostasy killings and vilification of homosexuality?

I'm well aware of that. Still doesn't change my stance.
So what if 99% of Muslims hated the concept of homosexuality to their very core? Would you still tolerate their beliefs?

Being anti Islamic does not mean being anti Arab. Islam is a bullshit religion with bullshit practices rooted in homophobia, paedophilia and warmongering. You of all people should not be turning a blind eye to this.

Me of all people? What, because I'm gay, I should automatically vilify a religion of more than a billion people because they have stances that differ from my sexual orientation?

We've had this exact same discussion before, and I'm simply going to refer you to Psy's post in here: I am not going to deem everyone who follows the religion as evil extremists before getting to know them, as there are many moderate Muslims who do not want to be associated with the extremists who are extremely vocal. I am not going to call for the eradication of the religion, the mass murder of Muslims that some call for. I am going to disagree with some of their stances, and study the religion more to understand it.

But no - my sexual orientation is not going to be a basis for more hatred against a sect of people.

That's my point though. Even the moderates still withhold a lot of pernicious beliefs despite not going full Jihad.

Just because the majority of Muslims aren't strapping bombs to themselves does not mean we can give the rest of them a hall pass because they aren't resorting to violence. WBC, the KKK in its current iteration and the Aryan Nations don't utilize violence but we still challenge their bullshit ideologies. I don't see why Islam should be an exception just because it happens to be more popular.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · November 11, 2015, 03:22:44 PM

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Ginger · November 11, 2015, 03:29:22 PM

I have no problems with Islam, but a problem with anyone who is an extremist. All religion is pretty silly to me, but its history is revealing and serves a purpose. Most people know nothing about Islam but the bits they gather on Wikipedia. Unfortunately, even if someone -a member from the group perhaps- were to read the Quran, their interpretation of the text would be subject to a type of asymmetric ignorance with perceptions colored by previous experiences.

DAS B00T x2 · November 11, 2015, 03:34:49 PM

Let's all remember that Sikhism was a direct response to Islamic tyranny.

Luciana · November 11, 2015, 03:45:10 PM

Ushan · November 13, 2015, 01:34:08 AM

I can't really speak on whether it's a minority that's violent or not, but I've gotten to know a lot of Muslims throughout my life, and I honestly don't see a huge difference between the Muslims and the Christians that I've met.

I know that the middle east wasn't always the shit heap it is now, while still being highly Islamic. Not even a hundred years ago, westerners happily wandered around the middle east in relative safety. so I reckon the problem isn't so much with Islam but with the environment that the people are in.

Ajax · November 13, 2015, 06:42:54 AM

Im just against religion in general

Super Irish · November 13, 2015, 06:49:13 AM

I don't really know enough to have an opinion honestly.

Not all of them are bad though, thats a sweeping generalisation. Sure, I won't refute facts like "80% hate the West", etc, etc... but it's not ALL of them.

I'd would like to know how many naturualised muslims that arrived here and in the US actually believe that too. You see, those are the ones that you or I would likely ever meet, and would ever likely be a "direct threat" if their idealogy is truely a hateful one.