I have a genuine issue with abortion

Mad Max · December 16, 2014, 02:54:46 PM

I'm adamantly pro-choice.

Why does killing a pregnant woman get you two counts of manslaughter/murder/etc?

Verbatim · December 16, 2014, 03:02:08 PM

Because we're stupid and we haven't figured out the difference between a fetus and a sentient human being yet.

I'm pro-death.

DAS B00T x2 · December 16, 2014, 03:03:06 PM

Quote

Why does killing a pregnant woman get you two counts of manslaughter/murder/etc?

I'm inclined to believe that it's (for lack of a better phrase) a sentiment of the old patriarchy that has simply never been questioned for removal.
Like, killing a chick is one thing, but kill a pregnant chick? That's off limits, bro.

challengerX · December 16, 2014, 03:03:23 PM

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Mad Max · December 16, 2014, 03:04:22 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 16, 2014, 03:03:23 PM

Depending how far along the pregnancy is, it should count as a double homicide because it's killing two people.

I'm not sure what you're so confused about.

If she's within the legal window for an abortion, should it still be a double homicide?

BasedLove · December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM

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Mr. Psychologist · December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM

Abortion is good.

Why?

More Than Mortal · December 16, 2014, 03:15:08 PM

Life begins at conception. To kill a pregnant woman who has thus far decided to keep the baby is, as far as it matters, ending two lives.

Mad Max · December 16, 2014, 03:21:26 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM

Abortion is good.

That...really isn't what we're talking about

PSU · December 16, 2014, 03:23:47 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 16, 2014, 03:15:08 PM

Life begins at conception. To kill a pregnant woman who has thus far decided to keep the baby is, as far as it matters, ending two lives.

^This

Mad Max · December 16, 2014, 03:23:56 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 16, 2014, 03:15:08 PM

Life begins at conception. To kill a pregnant woman who has thus far decided to keep the baby is, as far as it matters, ending two lives.

Then those two things are in conflict. If life begins at conception, we shouldn't have abortions.

BasedLove · December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM

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PSU · December 16, 2014, 03:27:07 PM

A little too rude for the serious board, and more bluntly than I would have put it.

Just an edit for this one >.>

More Than Mortal · December 16, 2014, 03:29:11 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on December 16, 2014, 03:23:56 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 16, 2014, 03:15:08 PM
Life begins at conception. To kill a pregnant woman who has thus far decided to keep the baby is, as far as it matters, ending two lives.
Then those two things are in conflict. If life begins at conception, we shouldn't have abortions.

That's not true. There's nothing inherently wrong with ending an innocent life.

Nick McIntyre · December 16, 2014, 03:29:31 PM

Quote from: PSU on December 16, 2014, 03:27:07 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
Abortion is good.

Why?

Babies don't become conscious or self aware until they are around 3 years old.

Dude you're a fucking idiot

Youuu should probably read the new Serious board rules. >_____>

Anyways, killing a pregnant woman is that strange issue when it comes to people that are for-abortion. You're either committing a double murder, or just murdering a woman who happens to be pregnant. Tbh I don't think too much about the issue because I have no want of going around shooting pregnant women or punching them right in their bulging stomachs >_>;

BasedLove · December 16, 2014, 03:30:13 PM

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Mad Max · December 16, 2014, 03:34:56 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 16, 2014, 03:29:11 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on December 16, 2014, 03:23:56 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 16, 2014, 03:15:08 PM
Life begins at conception. To kill a pregnant woman who has thus far decided to keep the baby is, as far as it matters, ending two lives.
Then those two things are in conflict. If life begins at conception, we shouldn't have abortions.
That's not true. There's nothing inherently wrong with ending an innocent life.

...which brings me back to my original question of why it's a double homicide.

Mr. Psychologist · December 16, 2014, 03:37:04 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
Abortion is good.

Why?

Babies don't become conscious or self aware until they are around 3 years old.

This is fundamentally incorrect, infants demonstrate consciousness visibly as soon as they exit the womb. The assumption is that the consciousness is also present prior to passing through the uterus as being born isn't just an on/off switch for your brain.

When a baby is kicking inside the womb, that is demonstrating consciousness as well.

challengerX · December 16, 2014, 03:37:54 PM

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Mr. Psychologist · December 16, 2014, 03:38:17 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:30:13 PM

Quote from: PSU on December 16, 2014, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
Abortion is good.

Why?

Babies don't become conscious or self aware until they are around 3 years old.

Dude you're a fucking idiot

Ok. Then tell me anything you remember about being alive when you were younger than 3.

You can't can you?

I can, and I can provide a detailed account of memories from when I was two years old.
However, your point is still incorrect.

challengerX · December 16, 2014, 03:39:56 PM

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BasedLove · December 16, 2014, 03:40:03 PM

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More Than Mortal · December 16, 2014, 03:40:20 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on December 16, 2014, 03:34:56 PM

...which brings me back to my original question of why it's a double homicide.

Because we generally accept that there are some reasons for ending an innocent life which are legitimate. Killing a person because you feel like it is obviously antisocial. Killing a man to transplant his kidneys is leaning towards antisocial. Switching the track of an oncoming train to kill one person instead of five is fairly neutral.

It just matters where on the spectrum of "acceptableness" abortion lies, which tends to be in the only very slightly antisocial. Killing a pregnant woman for any other reason than to save a substantial net amount of lives will also be punishable, especially when you also have no right to rob the foetus of its future life. The woman, however, will be almost wholly responsible for its upbringing and development, and is in a better position than some thug with a gun to decide whether or not it'd be right to keep it.

Septy · December 16, 2014, 03:41:07 PM

I see nothing wrong with abortion before a certain point. At the beginning it's just a clump of cells, a fetus' heart doesn't even pump, it's not a conscious baby. And it's the woman's choice what to do with her body.

More Than Mortal · December 16, 2014, 03:41:25 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 16, 2014, 03:37:54 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 16, 2014, 03:29:11 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on December 16, 2014, 03:23:56 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on December 16, 2014, 03:15:08 PM
Life begins at conception. To kill a pregnant woman who has thus far decided to keep the baby is, as far as it matters, ending two lives.
Then those two things are in conflict. If life begins at conception, we shouldn't have abortions.
That's not true. There's nothing inherently wrong with ending an innocent life.
Oh fuck off Meta. Killing a kid is bad and you know it. Stop playing.

Killing a kid for no reason whatsoever is bad, obviously. If I killed a kid to save 300 other kids, however, it'd be unfortunate but not bad. Moral judgments are always based on circumstance and consequence, not anything inherent.

DAS B00T x2 · December 16, 2014, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:38:17 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:30:13 PM
Quote from: PSU on December 16, 2014, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
Abortion is good.

Why?

Babies don't become conscious or self aware until they are around 3 years old.

Dude you're a fucking idiot

Ok. Then tell me anything you remember about being alive when you were younger than 3.

You can't can you?
I can, and I can provide a detailed account of memories from when I was two years old.
However, your point is still incorrect.

Are they actually memories or just fabricated thoughts created from stories about yourself as a baby that your parents told you? I've got a ton of the later but I can't feel right saying they're actually memories.

Mr. Psychologist · December 16, 2014, 03:46:02 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:40:03 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:38:17 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:30:13 PM
Quote from: PSU on December 16, 2014, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
Abortion is good.

Why?

Babies don't become conscious or self aware until they are around 3 years old.

Dude you're a fucking idiot

Ok. Then tell me anything you remember about being alive when you were younger than 3.

You can't can you?
I can, and I can provide a detailed account of memories from when I was two years old.

Do it then.

Alrighty, three examples.

Aged two, in the first house we lived in, laying out a map of the world using toy animals to draw the continents with the appropriate animals for each continent. Zebras for africa, Pandas for asia, Macaws and Pangolins for south america etc.

Aged two, visiting the natural history museum, viewing an animatronic display of velociraptors and talking to a TV presenter (Michaela Strachan) whilst being held by my mother. I told her the dinosaur joke from jurassic park.

Aged two, at an amusement park for kids, riding around on a tractor thing in little carts that were being pulled by it. Watching an ostlery display at the same place and seeing a barn owl up close.

I could go on with others, but regardless of how many examples I provide you can't actually prove or disprove their authenticity and neither can I. They are memories though, from when I was aged two.

PSU · December 16, 2014, 03:46:50 PM

Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:30:13 PM

Quote from: PSU on December 16, 2014, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
Abortion is good.

Why?

Babies don't become conscious or self aware until they are around 3 years old.

Dude you're a fucking idiot

Ok. Then tell me anything you remember about being alive when you were younger than 3.

You can't can you?

Sure I can. Are you trying to insinuate that we could kill children before they are 3?

Mr. Psychologist · December 16, 2014, 03:47:58 PM

Quote from: DAS B00T DAS B00T on December 16, 2014, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:38:17 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:30:13 PM
Quote from: PSU on December 16, 2014, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:25:05 PM
Quote from: Mr Psychologist on December 16, 2014, 03:13:50 PM
Quote from: BL on December 16, 2014, 03:10:00 PM
Abortion is good.

Why?

Babies don't become conscious or self aware until they are around 3 years old.

Dude you're a fucking idiot

Ok. Then tell me anything you remember about being alive when you were younger than 3.

You can't can you?
I can, and I can provide a detailed account of memories from when I was two years old.
However, your point is still incorrect.
Are they actually memories or just fabricated thoughts created from stories about yourself as a baby that your parents told you? I've got a ton of the later but I can't feel right saying they're actually memories.

They are memories, I have a few that are possibly fabricated ones which line up with old camcorder footage I watched on a VHS player but the ones I just listed are ones I remember clearly myself.

challengerX · December 16, 2014, 04:23:14 PM

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