I think we are the endpoint, to be honest.
Quote from: DAS B00T WILL RISE AGAIN on July 04, 2015, 09:35:13 PMSeeing as we don't consider a lion immoral for eating a wild gazellei dolions are repugnant and evil and uselessjust because they're biologically too stupid to realize what they're doing, doesn't make what they're doing okay
Seeing as we don't consider a lion immoral for eating a wild gazelle
Quote from: DAS B00T WILL RISE AGAIN on July 04, 2015, 09:58:01 PMQuote from: Snake Wilson on July 04, 2015, 09:42:54 PM We are more intelligent than lions and can question whether what we do is wrong or not, for one.And assuming we were a purely carnivorous race we should just remove ourselves from existence based on that alone? That doesn't even begin to make sense.I think the argument is that we have reached a stage in our existence where even if we were carnivorous, we could still survive without killing other animals. Science has come a long way, and it is probably entirely possible for a carnivore to survive on supplements and substitutes for actual meat.
Quote from: Snake Wilson on July 04, 2015, 09:42:54 PM We are more intelligent than lions and can question whether what we do is wrong or not, for one.And assuming we were a purely carnivorous race we should just remove ourselves from existence based on that alone? That doesn't even begin to make sense.
We are more intelligent than lions and can question whether what we do is wrong or not, for one.
This is the point where vegans and vegetarians like to pretend animals are sentient
In all, humans evolved eating animals, it's not something new. It would adversely impact the ecosystem if we stopped.In fact, we evolved mass-murdering each other, and it's already impacting the ecosystem adversely, it's something we need to go back to doing, and get over our moral qualms about it.
This is the point where vegans and vegetarians like to pretend animals are sentient or have souls, but that's up for debate.
Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 08:38:41 AMThis is the point where vegans and vegetarians like to pretend animals are sentientThey are. Pretending that they're not is just a convenience for you. It would probably psychologically destroy you if you were to account for one moment all of the suffering that is endured by all sentient non-human species in the wild and especially those kept in factory farms.QuoteIn all, humans evolved eating animals, it's not something new. It would adversely impact the ecosystem if we stopped.In fact, we evolved mass-murdering each other, and it's already impacting the ecosystem adversely, it's something we need to go back to doing, and get over our moral qualms about it.you need to be more subtle with your trolls
Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 08:38:41 AMThis is the point where vegans and vegetarians like to pretend animals are sentient or have souls, but that's up for debate.Actually I think it's more to do with them being capable of suffering, I doubt many people think animals have souls unless they are an animist sort of fellow. Sentience is currently only really applied to humans and tentatively applied to great apes and maybe dolphins, but even that's just tenuous.I do like how in the natural world the more intelligent a creature becomes the greater it's capacity for cruelty.I.e Dolphin Rape-Caves/Drowning for funsies or with chimps they can do some nasty shit to other chimps too <_<
We eat other animals, we farm other animals.Ants also farm other animals.The fact that we do it more efficiently is nothing to be ashamed of.
And I don't care about the struggles of other humans, much less the struggles of sub-human animals.
Many sub-primate humans lack the communicative abilities to demonstrate abstract thought, and you therefore cannot claim that they have abstract thought.
It's the same as the god argument, you can't make a case for an unobservable construct.
You make the statement that animals are sentient in the same faith that a religious person believes in god, and there is nothing logical about it.
I do like how in the natural world the more intelligent a creature becomes the greater it's capacity for cruelty.I.e Dolphin Rape-Caves/Drowning for funsies or with chimps they can do some nasty shit to other chimps too <_<
Yes, it is, considering that we have the ability to consider our actions and deem them unethical (which they are). Ants can't do that, because ants are stupid. Let's not be like the stupid ants. That sounds really dumb. Like, really really really dumb.
That would make you an evil, solipsistic sociopath.
I'm not saying they have abstract thought. That's not what sentience means. It just means that you can feel. They suffer. That's the whole point.
Stab a dog in the eye and see how much it appreciates it.
Except there's observable scientific evidence to suggest that, yes, many animal species can in fact and DO in fact feel intense pain when you stab them in the eye.Denying that is just like a religious kook denying evolution.It's that insane.
Animals feel and suffer objectively, not subjectively.
Once again, that's objective pain, it has nothing to do with sentience.
Once again, pain is objective.
Endgame: kill others in total war or overpopulate the planet, eat animals or destroy the ecosystem.
Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 10:14:48 AMAnimals feel and suffer objectively, not subjectively....So do humans. When you stab a human in the eye, they are going to suffer just as much as a dog would, or a pig, or a cow, etc.Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 10:01:26 AMOnce again, that's objective pain, it has nothing to do with sentience.Yes, it does. There is no way to experience pain "subjectively". Pain is a feeling. The definition that you stated from Wikipedia states that sentience = FEELING. Pain is a negative feeling.You're getting 2+2 wrong here. This is simple arithmetic logic, and you're getting it wrong.Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 10:01:26 AMOnce again, pain is objective.It's also a feeling, making it a part of sentience.
Eh you're getting confused.Subjective pain would be something like psychosomatic pain.
Sentience is not simply the ability to feel something, it's the ability to feel something in response to something that isn't literally happening. A lot of people would say a dog mourns for their master, but really the dog knows, "That man scratches me behind the ears and feeds me, staying with him is a good thing." Animals don't have these abstract feelings that are subjective rather than objective, and that's what makes someone sentient.
Subjective feelings are an abstract thought, and most animals are not capable of abstract thought.
Arguing with nature seems stupid.
Quote from: SuperIrish on July 05, 2015, 10:57:50 AMArguing with nature seems stupid.Describing nature as precisely what it is--stupid and messy and wasteful--is probably a good idea.
Yep. Face it for what it is, cruel, retarded in some cases, and horribly inneficient.But hey, it works. Most of the time on Earth, anyway.
Quote from: SuperIrish on July 05, 2015, 11:02:31 AMYep. Face it for what it is, cruel, retarded in some cases, and horribly inneficient.But hey, it works. Most of the time on Earth, anyway.you can't say that something is inefficient in one breath, and say that "it works" in the sense
Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 11:05:31 AMQuote from: SuperIrish on July 05, 2015, 11:02:31 AMYep. Face it for what it is, cruel, retarded in some cases, and horribly inneficient.But hey, it works. Most of the time on Earth, anyway.you can't say that something is inefficient in one breath, and say that "it works" in the senseYou can though. Inefficient work is still work, despite the energy wasted.
Can, and just have.
I mean, life still exists, but it's not "perfect" (by our own judgement of that definition).
Quote from: DAS B00T WILL RISE AGAIN on July 05, 2015, 11:07:21 AMQuote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 11:05:31 AMQuote from: SuperIrish on July 05, 2015, 11:02:31 AMYep. Face it for what it is, cruel, retarded in some cases, and horribly inneficient.But hey, it works. Most of the time on Earth, anyway.you can't say that something is inefficient in one breath, and say that "it works" in the senseYou can though. Inefficient work is still work, despite the energy wasted."it's work" =/= "it works"
A convoluted and inefficient system can still produce desirable results.