Human nature and selflessness.

Verbatim · December 23, 2015, 08:21:58 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 08:12:19 PM

My point is he doesn't even have time to feel good. He's dead in a matter of seconds. He decided to die to save others. You get no satisfaction from that. You get no selfish satisfaction from taking a bullet for somebody else.

I'm talking about prospects. It's possible to think about the prospect of helping others, and get a good feeling out of that.

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You're just pulling stuff out of your ass now.

Because they function as arguments that you cannot refute.

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It's hilarious is what it is. You think I'm having a hard time understanding something, when it's actually you.

It's hilarious is what it is. You think I'm having a hard time understanding something, when it's actually you.

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When he's dead?

Do I need to define the word "prospect" for you?

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You aren't. The industry keeps going.

Because of people like you. Not me.

Veganism is as selfless as can be. Get over it.

You call me petty.

More Than Mortal · December 23, 2015, 08:25:09 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 08:19:49 PM

Quote from: The Meta Order on December 23, 2015, 08:16:02 PM
Challenger isn't acknowledging that all actions are motivated by the prospect of some kind of self-gratification
What self gratification do you get from jumping on a grenade?

It feels like the right thing to do. It's a moral course of action. I'm not implying every act is done in the pursuit of some kind of pleasure, which is obviously incorrect.

Verbatim · December 23, 2015, 08:25:43 PM

Judging whether a deed is selfless or not based on how much it changes the world is pretty shallow, too.

By that logic, donating to charity isn't selfless, because charities don't change anything in the grand scheme.
People are still poor and hungry.

Your desperate and impotent attempt at denigrating my character is desperate and impotent.

Verbatim · December 23, 2015, 08:27:23 PM

Quote from: The Meta Order on December 23, 2015, 08:25:09 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 08:19:49 PM
Quote from: The Meta Order on December 23, 2015, 08:16:02 PM
Challenger isn't acknowledging that all actions are motivated by the prospect of some kind of self-gratification
What self gratification do you get from jumping on a grenade?
It feels like the right thing to do. It's a moral course of action. I'm not implying every act is done in the pursuit of some kind of pleasure, which is obviously incorrect.

Is doing the right thing not, intrinsically, a pleasurable feeling?

challengerX · December 23, 2015, 08:29:15 PM

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More Than Mortal · December 23, 2015, 08:31:11 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 23, 2015, 08:27:23 PM

Is doing the right thing not, intrinsically, a pleasurable feeling?

In some sense, but not always. It's possible for people to be totally depressed as a result of constantly acting ethically, and I find it difficult to believe a soldier jumping on a grenade--or a monk performing self-immolation--has any opportunity to feel pleasure in their actions. Especially not if they survive, and come to regret it.

I think all actions can be reduced to a form of self-gratification, but to claim all actions are done in the pursuit of some kin of pleasure seems overly reductionist. You can do the moral thing simply because you feel an ethical duty to, not because you derive any good feeling from it.

Verbatim · December 23, 2015, 08:32:39 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 08:29:15 PM

In the 3 or so seconds you have left, that's not what you're thinking of.

You have to make the decision. You have to think about it and have a desire to do it. This will give you a good feeling, because you know you're doing the right thing. The speed at which it occurs is irrelevant.

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No, you need to do something selfless.

I've done many things that are more selfless than selfish. But they were all ultimately selfish to some degree or another.

What you're doing right now is just a roundabout way of insulting my character, and you should probably be banned for it.

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And if we do all go vegan, those species will all go extinct. Not that you actually cared in the first place, you want everything to die. So really, why are you a vegan?

Because you're selfish.

Duh. Everyone is selfish.

Extinction is the ultimate goal of all life, and is the most selfless deed of all.
Wanting life to go on is selfishness to the highest degree.

challengerX · December 23, 2015, 08:33:05 PM

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Verbatim · December 23, 2015, 08:34:00 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 08:33:05 PM

Except people actually get helped.

Those animals still get killed.

Except for 200+, every year. And more, if more people went vegan.

challengerX · December 23, 2015, 08:41:00 PM

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Kitsune 狐 · December 23, 2015, 08:42:44 PM

A friendly reminder that this is in serious and personal insults are not tolerated.

Verbatim · December 23, 2015, 08:45:05 PM

Quote from: challengerX on December 23, 2015, 08:41:00 PM

It doesn't occur at all. You do it because it's right. Not because you feel good. You're giving your fucking life.

Doing (what you feel to be) the right thing to do always feels good.

You seem to know a lot about stepping on grenades for someone who has never stepped on a grenade.
Or studied human psychology, or anything.

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What are you a Jew? Stop playing the victim.

Veganism is selfless.

More selfless than selfish, I should say.

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LOL

Yeah I'm done here. This poisonous ideology of yours has infected every part of your life.

*enriched

Kitsune 狐 · December 23, 2015, 08:49:19 PM

Veganism isn't entirely selfless especially if it makes you feel good about not consuming their flesh, and especially when those super vegans believe they are superior to carnivores. To be clear: Verb, I am not talking about you. I'm referring to PETA fanatics.

More Than Mortal · December 23, 2015, 08:50:28 PM

Quote from: Merry Kitsune on December 23, 2015, 08:42:44 PM

A friendly reminder that this is in serious and personal insults are not tolerated.

Shut up, you have no authority with us.

Verbatim · December 23, 2015, 08:54:49 PM

Quote from: Merry Kitsune on December 23, 2015, 08:49:19 PM

Veganism isn't entirely selfless especially if it makes you feel good about not consuming their flesh, and especially when those super vegans believe they are superior to carnivores. To be clear: Verb, I am not talking about you. I'm referring to PETA fanatics.

Yeah, that's kinda what I was saying anyway. It does feel good to be a vegan, so it's not completely selfless, but all I was saying was that, ultimately, the selfishness is outweighed, because I'm contributing to a large-scale movement to curtail the suffering of millions of animals across the globe.

challengerX · December 23, 2015, 09:04:06 PM

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Sandtrap · December 23, 2015, 09:46:15 PM

There's only one truly selfless act. Giving your life for another's knowing full well that your life stands to be lost in the process. I believe it only counts for strangers or people you don't know, not family, because you have a benefit of keeping a loved one alive who is close to you, even if you die.

But for a stranger, at that point, you actually, feasibly have nothing to gain and no ulterior agenda of a silent hope of some kind of benefit. It's one thing to save somebody you love. But it takes a lot more to do for somebody you don't know.

Winy · December 24, 2015, 03:05:18 PM

I've thought about this before, and I think there's no such thing as a totally selfless act, because anything you do that benefits others is still being done because you seek gratification and satisfaction knowing that what you've done is a "Good" thing to do. I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, just that, at the most basic levels of motives, everything we do is done for our own benefit, at least to some degree.