How bad does life have to get

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:20:39 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:15:00 AM

Say all humans stop reproducing completely. Now fast forward 50 years.
Do you see the problem?

...No.

Quote

Unless your goal is to eventually end all of human existence, then you should be able to see why it's fucking stupid.

. . .

OF COURSE THAT'S THE FUCKING GOAL. How the fuck could you NOT know that?

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:22:44 AM

Quote from: Kupo on February 03, 2015, 09:19:41 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 09:17:33 AM
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Fallacy fallacy fallacy.

He's treating nature as if its a god that must be obeyed. Nature is not a god that must be obeyed. If nature had its way, there would no one like me to oppose it. You moron.

You post that every single time I point out that someone is making a fallacious argument. I'm going to start reporting you now.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:25:33 AM

Fuck you. Get out of the fucking thread if you're not gonna discuss the fucking subject.

I was miserable for YEARS before I became an anti-natalist.

And I've been one for almost three years. Yeah, some "phase".

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:28:29 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:27:57 AM

Nah, I can do as I please.

Reported.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:32:32 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:30:18 AM

Anyways, how about you stop derailing your own topic and actually provide some good arguments for me?

You derailed the thread, and I have provided an argument. Apparently, the idea that I want the human race to go EXTINCT is (somehow) news to you. Now it's YOUR turn to show to me why the human race shouldn't go extinct.

You will fail.

More Than Mortal · February 03, 2015, 09:37:16 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 08:41:08 AM

We learn and grow from pain and suffering, struggle and conflict

You're missing the entire point. Verb isn't saying that suffering can NEVER have some sort of utility, he's saying it needn't operate in a position of utility or disutility at all.

o______________o · February 03, 2015, 09:38:01 AM

I suppose if I had zero friends, I might become anti-natalist.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:38:10 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:34:41 AM

Tell me first why whales should go extinct. Birds. Lions. Insects.
Go ahead and tell me what ending the existence of a species will accomplish.

No life, no suffering.

Boom.

Go ahead, ask some more embarrassingly easy questions.

More Than Mortal · February 03, 2015, 09:41:02 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:10:13 AM

Life is what you make of it.

Again, missing the point. Verbatim isn't saying its impossible for somebody to improve there life, he's saying an imposition of such a situation is immoral in the first instance.

Like I said above, it's not about a balance of utility or disutility-it's about not imposing the need to find a balance in the first place.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:41:19 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:40:31 AM

What's so horrible about suffering?
As I said in my first post, through suffering comes wisdom, enlightenment, and growth.

Refer to Meta's post.

Quote from: Meta Cognition on February 03, 2015, 09:37:16 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 08:41:08 AM
We learn and grow from pain and suffering, struggle and conflict
You're missing the entire point. Verb isn't saying that suffering can NEVER have some sort of utility, he's saying it needn't operate in a position of utility or disutility at all.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:43:38 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:42:26 AM

Answer my question please.

I DID.

Meta actually understands what the fuck I'm saying, and he summed up my position quite well.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:44:50 AM

Someone fucking ban this cunt.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:45:40 AM

I don't answer loaded questions.

DAS B00T x2 · February 03, 2015, 09:47:00 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:44:20 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 09:43:38 AM
Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:42:26 AM
Answer my question please.
I DID.

Meta actually understands what the fuck I'm saying, and he summed up my position quite well.
No, you didn't.
What's so horrible about suffering if it can be overcome?

Well, you see, statistically speaking... a lot of your kind can't even overcome it.

More Than Mortal · February 03, 2015, 09:47:16 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:23:47 AM

This is not a healthy state of mind

Jesus Christ. The last instance I know of where a person accused somebody of being mentally ill for disagreeing with them involved a Stalinist.

Not to mention, acknowledgement of the facts (be they moral or physical) doesn't necessitate any sort of emotional state. I hear it all the time from people who aren't determinists; "What's the point to anything? Doesn't it make you miserable?"

No. It doesn't. Searching for truth is liberating in all of its forms, and I'm sure Verbatim agrees.

More Than Mortal · February 03, 2015, 09:48:41 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:44:20 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 09:43:38 AM
Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:42:26 AM
Answer my question please.
I DID.

Meta actually understands what the fuck I'm saying, and he summed up my position quite well.
No, you didn't.
What's so horrible about suffering if it can be overcome?

He did, the utility of overcoming suffering is negated when the capacity for disutility is removed in the first place.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:51:59 AM

He's probably trolling.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · February 03, 2015, 09:52:46 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 09:22:44 AM

Quote from: Kupo on February 03, 2015, 09:19:41 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 09:17:33 AM
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy
Fallacy fallacy fallacy.

He's treating nature as if its a god that must be obeyed. Nature is not a god that must be obeyed. If nature had its way, there would no one like me to oppose it. You moron.

You post that every single time I point out that someone is making a fallacious argument. I'm going to start reporting you now.

Fine, whatever.

What sense does it make for a species to force its own extinction because it cannot fulfill a logically impossible moral requirement?

More Than Mortal · February 03, 2015, 09:54:58 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:52:52 AM

Wisdom and enlightenment comes from pain and suffering. I've grown from my struggles, and I'm glad I didn't give into the dark depths of my mind. I dealt with suicidal depression for about half of my lifespan.

Why do you keep restating something nobody even remotely disagrees with?

DAS B00T x2 · February 03, 2015, 09:55:42 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:52:52 AM

Quote from: ⱭAS ᗺ00T x2 on February 03, 2015, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:44:20 AM
Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 09:43:38 AM
Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:42:26 AM
Answer my question please.
I DID.

Meta actually understands what the fuck I'm saying, and he summed up my position quite well.
No, you didn't.
What's so horrible about suffering if it can be overcome?
Well, you see, statistically speaking... a lot of your kind can't even overcome it.
My "kind"

Well if we're going to play that game, then they simply weren't strong enough to overcome and make something of their life from their pain. That's not to say I don't have sympathy. I could tell you all about how I've hit rock bottom more times than I can even count anymore.

But I'll quote it again:
“Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall”

Wisdom and enlightenment comes from pain and suffering. I've grown from my struggles, and I'm glad I didn't give into the dark depths of my mind. I dealt with suicidal depression for about half of my lifespan.

Wonderful.
Now, is it fair to bring something new into the world which has the potential to suffer even more than yourself did?

Aether · February 03, 2015, 09:57:43 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:23:47 AM

You are completely nonsensical and should probably visit a shrink.

Nuka it's fine if you want to disagree and debate with Verbatim about this, but drop this type of shit when you do it. There is no reason you have to be so insulting when making a point, especially in this forum.

Also, stop lashing back so much, Verbatim. Like I said, this isn't the forum for it.

Can we not have anymore reason to flood reports from this thread? Heysoose cristo.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 09:57:58 AM

Quote from: Kupo on February 03, 2015, 09:52:46 AM

What sense does it make for a species to force its own extinction because it cannot fulfill a logically impossible moral requirement?

Perfect sense. I don't know what's so troubling about it, to be honest. You're going to have to tell me.

More Than Mortal · February 03, 2015, 09:58:22 AM

Nuka, stop trying to balance the utility and disutility of life. Perform a regression and step back; Verbatim is claiming that the INITIAL IMPOSITION of this need to find a balance between utility and disutiliy is immoral in itself, since no utility is lost in the face of a complete lack of disutility.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · February 03, 2015, 09:59:53 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 09:57:58 AM

Quote from: Kupo on February 03, 2015, 09:52:46 AM
What sense does it make for a species to force its own extinction because it cannot fulfill a logically impossible moral requirement?
Perfect sense. I don't know what's so troubling about it, to be honest. You're going to have to tell me.

What part of "logically impossible" do you need me to clarify?

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 03, 2015, 09:59:57 AM

Moral of the story: adopt so that you don't have to make another suffer, and so that you can limit the suffering for an existing life.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 10:00:45 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:56:17 AM

Because there's nothing inherently wrong with suffering, which seems to be the entire reason for wanting to eliminate it.

For the fifth time, it's NOT.

There's nothing inherently wrong with suffering--that doesn't mean it HAS to happen. That doesn't mean it HAS to exist. Invariably, it is BETTER if there is NO suffering.

More Than Mortal · February 03, 2015, 10:00:55 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:56:17 AM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on February 03, 2015, 09:54:58 AM
Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:52:52 AM
Wisdom and enlightenment comes from pain and suffering. I've grown from my struggles, and I'm glad I didn't give into the dark depths of my mind. I dealt with suicidal depression for about half of my lifespan.
Why do you keep restating something nobody even remotely disagrees with?
Because there's nothing inherently wrong with suffering, which seems to be the entire reason for wanting to eliminate it.

Verbatim didn't claim suffering--as the negative experiences of conscious creatures--is inherently bad. The badness being discussed is the general disutility being imposed upon people--or, if you like, the suffering minus the overcoming, taken as an aggregate.

Verbatim · February 03, 2015, 10:02:14 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:59:28 AM

Life isn't supposed to be fair.

All the more reason not to impose life on others.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · February 03, 2015, 10:02:32 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 10:01:54 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on February 03, 2015, 10:00:45 AM
Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:56:17 AM
Because there's nothing inherently wrong with suffering, which seems to be the entire reason for wanting to eliminate it.
For the fifth time, it's NOT.

There's nothing inherently wrong with suffering--that doesn't mean it HAS to happen. That doesn't mean it HAS to exist. Invariably, it is BETTER if there is NO suffering.
What's the point of nonexistence?

Conversely, what's the point of existence?

DAS B00T x2 · February 03, 2015, 10:03:03 AM

Quote from: Nuka 'Kal Vargun on February 03, 2015, 09:59:28 AM

Life isn't supposed to be fair. Whether it's fair or not doesn't matter.

In other words, acting out of self interest is the best thing to do, right?

Quote

If they were to suffer more and overcome, then they'd be a stronger and more wise person than I.

This is neither inherently true or certain.