How bad does life have to get

 
Verbatim
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Isn't it "immoral" to condemn someone to have people live until they die out, one by one when they had the ability to keep life going? Isn't it "immoral" for that last person to be left to die alone when the first had everyone surrounding them in their final moments?
No. Even if it was, what's your solution? Have more people, so they can suffer, too? What's the point?
It's selfish.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:27:55 AM by Verbatim


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
So, despite my nominally supportive position of Verbatim in that little debate, I'm not an anti-natalist. The best argument I can come up against anti-natalism will be laid out (probably haphazardly) ahead. I call it, the Problem of Parsimony.

So, it seems the moral foundation of anti-natalism is avoiding the actualisation of disutility--or, in other words, the imposition of disutility--in the form of procreation. I'm using disutility instead of suffering here, as it's clearly possible for suffering to engender some long-term benefits for a person, whereas disutility is--by definition--wholly undesirable (suffering - long-term benefit = disutility).

Anti-natalism falls down, it seems to me, in its conception of disutility. All disutility, to the anti-natalists, is equal in magnitude and moral "transgression". This, seems to me, to be false. It is worth quantifying disutility into at least two categories: significant disutility, and standard disutility. Significant disutility would be something seriously impinging on well-being (genocide), whereas standard disutility is closer to something like discomfort. It also stands to reason, therefore, that there are two kinds of utilities: significant and standard. Significant utility can properly be defined as the repudiation and transcendence of standard disutility, whereas standard utility is the mere avoidance or transcendence of significant disutility.

Now, the specific problem with anti-natalism is something I like to refer to as temporal suspension; it is locked in one frozen conception of the potential state of disutility, and the imposition of life is necessarily an actualisation of this potential state. What if, however, the potential state of disutility could be altered as to effectively exclude significant disutility, leaving only standard disutility as a thing to object to. My argument relies on the fundamental premise that the abolition of significant disutility is possible, via technology.

Represented at its most simply: significant disutility = -2, standard disutility = -1, standard utility = 0 and significant utility = 2. Under a paradigm of potential disutility involving significance, you get -1, with the only moral response being to not impose life. Under a paradigm in which potential disutility doesn't involve significance then you get 1.

In such an instance whereby significant disutility is not a potentiality, yet both kinds of utility are potentialities, it actually becomes more moral to strive for the continuation of the species with the expressed goal of eliminated significant disutility.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:34:06 AM by Meta Cognition


 
Verbatim
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Aight, gimme a minute, Meta.

You don't think that the last person, as they get caught in a trap that they could've been freed from, a disease they could've been cured from, etc, as they suffered from a death they didn't have to die from...they didn't deserve to have that aid from others?
I wouldn't want to be held responsible for someone's life (or death, for that matter). If I had to save someone's life, and I failed, which is always a distinct possibility, now I'm in utter despair. In such an instance as that, if I were the one dying, I'd hate to have someone risk their own lives just to save mine. I'd HATE it. Of course, if anyone did, I would be eternally grateful--but what I'm saying is, I don't like your assertion that there HAS to be people around, just because you can't do everything yourself. If I'm the last person on Earth, my death will be absolutely monumental--in a good way. There's no more people to take care of. There's no more suffering. That can ONLY BE a good thing.
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Is it really moral to forbid a a couple- a potential mother- from having a child that they so dearly want just because of your twisted idea of what morality is? That they should just grow old and without their kids to one day take care of them when they're too old to take care of themselves? That they'll never be able to see their beloved kids have grandchildren?
Oh, God... Yes, it's immoral. Having kids is immoral. There's no getting around it. Sorry, potential mother--the universe doesn't revolve around you. Morality isn't based on what people want. It's based on what's RIGHT.


 
Verbatim
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You might think it's right to feed your kid a hundred pounds of junk food, just because he wants it. But you'd be wrong, quite obviously.


 
Verbatim
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Then read it again, because I'm speaking out of selflessness, actually. I wouldn't want people burdened by my existence. And that's what existence IS--a burden. We can make it better, but it's always going to be a burden.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:56:57 AM by Verbatim


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Never because I would want humanity to keep going. I want my legacy and genes to keep going.

Shit could be an ice age with only 15 people on earth and I'd try to have as many kids as possible.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
And I'm talking from necessity.
Since when was having children a necessity?


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the one true God is Doctor Doom and we should all be worshiping him.
Even if I hit rock bottom, I wouldn't out of sheer defiance.


 
Verbatim
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We were talking hypotheticals, as in post-apocalyptic or a starting country.
And, again, that still doesn't make it necessity. Just because you would like to have kids doesn't make it okay. The fact that humanity is about to go extinct doesn't change that. That sounds like an argument from nature, again. We need to survive, for some arbitrary, ungiven reason. I just don't see any reason why, unless you're religious.


 
Verbatim
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I'm gonna step out for awhile. I've been sitting here for five hours.

I'll have your response, Meta. Hopefully you won't lose interest by then.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 12:13:10 PM by Verbatim


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
You know, the whole purpose for living in the first place.
Oh my God.

The point is to negate the need for utility by eliminating the imposition of disutility.


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Funny shit like this is why I love lurking in Serious. 


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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I've read through the whole thread and I still don't understand how someone could take an anti Reproduction stance.

You don't want kids yourself? That's cool.

But to want to throw away everything mankind has worked towards? Lol fucking retarded.

We have at least another 500 million years (until the sun is "suppose" to expand). Just imagine what mankind can accomplish in that amount of time.


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
But to want to throw away everything mankind has worked towards? Lol fucking retarded.
Verbatim isn't arguing for some sort of coercive "don't have kids" law. He said a couple of pages in how he doesn't chastise people for having kids, but merely tries to dissuade them before the fact.


PSU | Legendary Invincible!
 
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Yeah but his reasons for telling people to not have kids is fucking stupid.

Don't want to "inflict pain and stress" on someone for 70-80 years? Wtf?

When will he realize that pain is a good thing. You're not going to accomplish anything worthwhile in life without the sacrifice of enduring stress and suffering.


 
 
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More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
When will he realize that pain is a good thing. You're not going to accomplish anything worthwhile in life without the sacrifice of enduring stress and suffering.
The argument is about disutility, or suffering without a net benefit. Nobody here has denied that, say, being depressed can lead to superior overall well-being in the long-term.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Don't lie, if there was an actual bill for that he'd be all for it.
I find it funny that you accuse me of lying and then claim to be able to authoritatively speak for Verbatim. I'm just telling you what he has said.

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Also he did say that he'd push the red button.
He also said he preferred my reformulation of the deletion of the capacity to procreate, not the deletion of all life.


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
I find it funny that you accuse me of lying and then claim to be able to authoritatively speak for Verbatim.
Okay, you know that I didn't mean it like that >__>
Yeah, that came off more abrasively than I meant it to anyway <__<



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{zzz}°°°( -_-)>c[_]
I would stop caring and commit suicide before I became an antinatalist.

Its like the ultimate hipster opinion to think the human race should die off, but sticking around just to bitch at everyone else having a good time. Why anyone would care enough about whether other people have kids to hold it as a party line/philosophical belief is beyond me. Especially when you know the species / universe will die off eventually anyways.

A better question is why you're so afraid of suffering.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 12:51:00 PM by Naoto


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.


Well this is hilariously relevant.


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
A better question is why you're so afraid of suffering.
For what must be the eight time, it's a question of disutility (suffering - engendered benefits).


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{zzz}°°°( -_-)>c[_]
A better question is why you're so afraid of suffering.
For what must be the eight time, it's a question of disutility (suffering - engendered benefits).
Again so what? If death out weighs life for you then kill yourself. But to sit around and try and ensure others aren't born just because you don't see the point is just dumb. (not to mention extremely futile)

Suffering is how the individual grows. It is how the species grows. This agrument essentially boils down to 'life isn't fair'.

No shit. Grow up.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 01:03:14 PM by Naoto


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Again so what? If death out weighs life for you
Again, not even what he's arguing.

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Suffering is how the individual grows. It is how the species grows. This agrument essentially boils down to 'life isn't fair'.
I just said we aren't solely talking about suffering. Verbatim isn't denying the potential usefulness of suffering.


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{zzz}°°°( -_-)>c[_]
Again so what? If death out weighs life for you
Again, not even what he's arguing.

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Suffering is how the individual grows. It is how the species grows. This agrument essentially boils down to 'life isn't fair'.
I just said we aren't solely talking about suffering. Verbatim isn't denying the potential usefulness of suffering.
Again the argument is really really stupid. I can completely understand someone not wanting to have kids. For various reasons. Completely fine and ok with that. 

But then to make the jump to say no one else should have kids? Yeah have fun with your world view I guess.


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
But then to make the jump to say no one else should have kids?
It stands to reason that if you aren't going to have kids because it represents a moral transgression then--assuming this moral transgression is indeed true--others also shouldn't have kids.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 01:19:27 PM by Meta Cognition


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{zzz}°°°( -_-)>c[_]
But then to make the jump to say no one else should have kids?
It stands to reason that if you aren't going to have kids because it represents a moral transgression then--assuming this moral transgression is indeed true--it stands to reason that others shouldn't have kids.
It does not stand to reason.

A. Your outlook, morals, and situation are not the same as everyone else's. Just because you cannot find life worth it for a child does not mean others can't.
2. If the species/universe will eventually die off anyways trying to kill it off early is ultimately pointless. At the very least its an interesting experiment that should be allowed to run its course. At the most it is the most valuable thing we have and experience, and to throw it away/deny it to others because of suffering is the choice of the unintelligent.
C. It will never happen. Humanity is not going to sit down and say 'yep no more kids'. So even holding this position and arguing it makes people look foolish. A person seriously arguing this position will merely be  ::) at and everyone else will carry on with their day.
Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM by Naoto


 
More Than Mortal
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
It does not stand to reason.
It does assuming the moral transgression is a legitimate moral transgression.

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A. Your outlook, morals, and situation are not the same as everyone else's.
Since when did the the existence of alternative opinions automatically convey legitimacy. Vladimir Putin has an idea on the best way to structure an economy, but that doesn't make him correct.

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2. If the species/universe will eventually die off anyways trying to kill it off early is ultimately pointless.
I actually agree with this; I don't think anti-natalism is a 'practical' philosophy. But that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing its philosophical strength.

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C. It will never happen.
Well this is just the same as the point above, really.