FEMA to stop funding states with climate change-denying governors

Mad Max · March 23, 2015, 04:12:15 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 04:06:51 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:02:11 PM
By giving false information about climate change, they're setting up another generation to shill for them while making the kids scientifically illiterate at the same time. And because these kids won't believe in climate change, they'll downplay its effects and not give it the proper funding it needs, thus endangering everybody.
Nobody disagrees.

But where the fuck in there does it justify the revocation of preparedness funding?

Because we have to put our foot down somewhere where they'll give a fuck.

More Than Mortal · March 23, 2015, 04:13:51 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 23, 2015, 04:12:15 PM

Because we have to put our foot down somewhere where they'll give a fuck.

Great.

I suppose we should tax people to hell just to prove a point about fiscal responsibility, right? Let's cripple the economy so people know we're right.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 04:23:32 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 04:06:51 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:02:11 PM
By giving false information about climate change, they're setting up another generation to shill for them while making the kids scientifically illiterate at the same time. And because these kids won't believe in climate change, they'll downplay its effects and not give it the proper funding it needs, thus endangering everybody.
Nobody disagrees.

But where the fuck in there does it justify the revocation of preparedness funding?

Because it's a political game. The governors practice climate denial to earn brownie points with their base. For the most part, they're not actually that stupid to deny it. They'll fold immediately and this will all be a distant memory.

More Than Mortal · March 23, 2015, 04:25:52 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:23:32 PM

They'll fold immediately and this will all be a distant memory.

I refuse to believe you have that much disdain for human life.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 04:26:17 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 04:13:51 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 23, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Because we have to put our foot down somewhere where they'll give a fuck.
Great.

I suppose we should tax people to hell just to prove a point about fiscal responsibility, right? Let's cripple the economy so people know we're right.

"Let's teach false information because a lie told enough times becomes the truth" is the crux of climate denial. It's child abuse for political gain.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 04:29:08 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 04:25:52 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:23:32 PM
They'll fold immediately and this will all be a distant memory.
I refuse to believe you have that much disdain for human life.

Nothing I've said in this thread is wrong.

More Than Mortal · March 23, 2015, 04:29:22 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:26:17 PM

It's child abuse for political gain.

No, beating and raping kids is child abuse. Don't cheapen a legitimate problem.

Well, fuck. Let's be honest. Allowing people to die for the short-term benefit--simply on the basis that they're wrong, albeit in a consequential way--is just abuse, period.

aREALgod · March 23, 2015, 04:36:32 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:29:08 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 04:25:52 PM
Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:23:32 PM
They'll fold immediately and this will all be a distant memory.
I refuse to believe you have that much disdain for human life.
Nothing I've said in this thread is wrong.

To say that the loss of human life is justified because of ignorance is absolutely wrong. This is frightening to think that people are okay with politics working like this at all - this isn't just some political game, you're dealing with people's lives. That should never be pandered as a tactic.

Also, I think you'd quickly change your tune if you happened to be one of the people in any of these states being denied disaster funds.

Mad Max · March 23, 2015, 04:39:47 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 23, 2015, 04:01:37 PM

Alright, if denying FEMA funding to them isn't the answer, what is?

More Than Mortal · March 23, 2015, 04:44:57 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 23, 2015, 04:39:47 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 23, 2015, 04:01:37 PM
Alright, if denying FEMA funding to them isn't the answer, what is?

I don't know, and I don't particularly care at the moment. Education is obviously the main one, and I comment Jeb Bush for his willingness to defend national standards.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 04:56:49 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 04:29:22 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 04:26:17 PM
It's child abuse for political gain.
No, beating and raping kids is child abuse. Don't cheapen a legitimate problem.

Well, fuck. Let's be honest. Allowing people to die for the short-term benefit--simply on the basis that they're wrong, albeit in a consequential way--is just abuse, period.

Is politically motivated and factually incorrect education somehow not abuse? Enlighten me.

Downplaying the effects of climate change will have the same effects as FEMA cutting funding to these states. But as I implied in my previous post, they don't have any intention of carrying this out because they know what the end result will be--the governors will fold. The constituency will not tolerate the loss of FEMA funding. I guarantee you, it is not a politically viable option, especially when some of these same governors have presidential aspirations.

Quote from: Verbatim wird verzögert on March 23, 2015, 04:36:32 PM

To say that the loss of human life is justified because of ignorance is absolutely wrong. This is frightening to think that people are okay with politics working like this at all - this isn't just some political game, you're dealing with people's lives. That should never be pandered as a tactic.

Also, I think you'd quickly change your tune if you happened to be one of the people in any of these states being denied disaster funds.

Climate change denial is a political game. Pandering to the GOP base. Just as soon as FEMA does it, it's suddenly an injustice?

g💚jira · March 23, 2015, 04:56:57 PM

From Skype, a few questions for people in support of this...

Quote

A) how do you know it'll work? justify that it's a bluff with real evidence.

B) do the potential direct collateral consequences justify the potential result?

C (A+B)) you're talking about the long term. FEMA funding is the now with potentially short term results. do you not think that there are other paths to removing educational indoctrination?

assume that the two [by your own admission, though i'd be willing to debate it] propose the same magnitude of danger. is removing the long term permanently worth sacrificing the short term temporarily?

D) if the only justifications for this are utilitarian, what is your utility equation here? it's filled with "magic" premises

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 04:59:11 PM

Quote from: ((go)^ji)^ra on March 23, 2015, 04:56:57 PM

A) how do you know it'll work? justify that it's a bluff with real evidence.

If I could present evidence that it's a bluff, then it wouldn't be a bluff.

FEMA funding is a HUGE deal. Losing it would be political suicide.

R o c k e t · March 23, 2015, 05:02:58 PM

If you are going to withhold RELIEF that is vital because of a governor's position on one particular matter.......that is incredibly wrong.

Say I do believe in climate change, but my elected governor doesn't. Guess what?
I'm still not getting aid. This is just a stupid attempt to get people to support climate change.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 05:21:19 PM

I'm stupid. I should have read a bit more closely, because the details of this FEMA decision are important. (Heck, we all should have read a bit more closely before running around like ants about this)

I would like to point out that this doesn't include allFEMA aid, just hazard-mitigation aid--i.e., before the storm hits. Afterwards, FEMA will send aid. The states will not be left out in the cold.

This isn't even as big of a deal as we're all making it out to be.

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 05:02:58 PM

If you are going to withhold RELIEF that is vital because of a governor's position on one particular matter.......that is incredibly wrong.

Say I do believe in climate change, but my elected governor doesn't. Guess what?
I'm still not getting aid. This is just a stupid attempt to get people to support climate change.

Relief will not be withheld:

Quote

The policy doesn't affect federal money for relief after a hurricane, flood, or other disaster.

More Than Mortal · March 23, 2015, 05:30:17 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 05:21:19 PM

I would like to point out that this doesn't include allFEMA aid, just hazard-mitigation aid--i.e., before the storm hits. Afterwards, FEMA will send aid. The states will not be left out in the cold.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said earlier.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 05:32:16 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 05:30:17 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 05:21:19 PM
I would like to point out that this doesn't include allFEMA aid, just hazard-mitigation aid--i.e., before the storm hits. Afterwards, FEMA will send aid. The states will not be left out in the cold.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said earlier.

fuck me

Forgewolf · March 23, 2015, 07:37:06 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 23, 2015, 12:11:17 PM

So the fact that we have idiots means we should punish every single person in a state by revoking disaster preparedness funds? Really.

If anything it'll cost more in the long-run; FEMA is still obligated to supply relief.

Either way, joke is on them in the end.. okay.. actually its the tax payers either way xD

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · March 23, 2015, 08:46:14 PM

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R o c k e t · March 23, 2015, 08:59:48 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 05:21:19 PM

I'm stupid. I should have read a bit more closely, because the details of this FEMA decision are important. (Heck, we all should have read a bit more closely before running around like ants about this)

I would like to point out that this doesn't include allFEMA aid, just hazard-mitigation aid--i.e., before the storm hits. Afterwards, FEMA will send aid. The states will not be left out in the cold.

This isn't even as big of a deal as we're all making it out to be.

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 05:02:58 PM
If you are going to withhold RELIEF that is vital because of a governor's position on one particular matter.......that is incredibly wrong.

Say I do believe in climate change, but my elected governor doesn't. Guess what?
I'm still not getting aid. This is just a stupid attempt to get people to support climate change.
Relief will not be withheld:
Quote
The policy doesn't affect federal money for relief after a hurricane, flood, or other disaster.

Well that's still not good. You give them aid after a hurricane steamrolls the place?
There's nothing to offer aid to.

Preparations before something hits are pretty dang important.

Turkey · March 23, 2015, 09:27:05 PM

Maybe they're going to use the money they save to give everyone in DC jobs.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 10:03:16 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 08:59:48 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 05:21:19 PM
I'm stupid. I should have read a bit more closely, because the details of this FEMA decision are important. (Heck, we all should have read a bit more closely before running around like ants about this)

I would like to point out that this doesn't include allFEMA aid, just hazard-mitigation aid--i.e., before the storm hits. Afterwards, FEMA will send aid. The states will not be left out in the cold.

This isn't even as big of a deal as we're all making it out to be.

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 05:02:58 PM
If you are going to withhold RELIEF that is vital because of a governor's position on one particular matter.......that is incredibly wrong.

Say I do believe in climate change, but my elected governor doesn't. Guess what?
I'm still not getting aid. This is just a stupid attempt to get people to support climate change.
Relief will not be withheld:
Quote
The policy doesn't affect federal money for relief after a hurricane, flood, or other disaster.

Well that's still not good. You give them aid after a hurricane steamrolls the place?
There's nothing to offer aid to.

Preparations before something hits are pretty dang important.

Um, no amount of preparations and evacuations can prevent house floodings and other property damage. What do you think FEMA does if not help for disaster recovery, too?

And a lot of folks would be pissed off hearing that there's nothing left to aid. They still have themselves, and they don't plan on leaving. Even if their house is flattened, they need some sort of reimbursement. Guess what FEMA does?

R o c k e t · March 23, 2015, 10:18:23 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:03:16 PM

Um, no amount of preparations and evacuations can prevent house floodings and other property damage.

Sandbags

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 10:25:07 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 23, 2015, 08:46:14 PM

Holy shit you people are fucking assholes.

It's fucking disaster funding you chucklefucks, not confederate statues or shit like that.

The fact that I have to defend fucking climate-deniers is absolutely insane.

As I keep saying, climate-denying governors are only harming their states.

Here is a map indicating the stance of each state's governors on climate change. And here is a report by Columbia Law School analyzing the disaster preparedness of each state.

New Jersey: Governor Christie downplays the effects of climate change on the environment. His state is only a Category 3, while NJ's climate change-accepting counterparts are all Category 4's. This is despite New Jersey constantly getting BTFO'd by hurricanes.

Texas: Rick Perry denies climate change, and the state almost used textbooks that deny its existence. Texas is only a Category 2, despite being on the Gulf of Mexico.

Florida: Climate denial in governor Rick Scott, only a Category 3 despite being Florida.

Those are the biggest ones I can think of. It's easy to find a correlation being climate denial and a lack of disaster preparedness.

As I've said plenty of times today, climate change-denying governors are harming their states. They clearly won't change on their own, despite the years of evidence these gentlemen have witnessed in their own states. They are immune to reason in favor of political brownie points with their base.

Does anyone else have any better ideas?

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 10:27:45 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 10:18:23 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:03:16 PM
Um, no amount of preparations and evacuations can prevent house floodings and other property damage.

Sandbags

Yeah um no.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · March 23, 2015, 10:31:54 PM

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Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 10:39:03 PM

Quote from: Arm The Mob on March 23, 2015, 10:31:54 PM

Do you really think they're just going to change their stance over this?

If anything it will just lead to greater polarization.

The solution is education, not punishment for thoughtcrime.

Loss of FEMA funds is a big deal. It will post a significant threat to any of their future political endeavors, including re-election.

As I've already proven, climate change denial is not just thoughts, it is also actions. Folks like Rick Perry are determined to eliminate education on climate change.

If the fix was as simple as education, this situation would not be happening right now.

It is more than just being uninformed. They're intentionally being ignorant. They are fully aware of what they're doing. They choose to deny it because they like to keep the conservative base on their side, and because many of them have presidential aspirations. Climate change denial is critical to any serious GOP nominee.

It is a political move that just so happens to be a dangerous one, too.

R o c k e t · March 23, 2015, 10:40:28 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:27:45 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 10:18:23 PM
Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:03:16 PM
Um, no amount of preparations and evacuations can prevent house floodings and other property damage.

Sandbags
Yeah um no.

Yeah, and that's one scenario. Your statement is too generalized.

"No amount of preparations can prevent house floodings and other property damage".

That simply isn't true.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · March 23, 2015, 10:42:05 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 10:40:28 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:27:45 PM
Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 10:18:23 PM
Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:03:16 PM
Um, no amount of preparations and evacuations can prevent house floodings and other property damage.

Sandbags
Yeah um no.

Yeah, and that's one scenario. Your statement is too generalized.

"No amount of preparations can prevent house floodings and other property damage".

That simply isn't true.

I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation.

YouTube

R o c k e t · March 23, 2015, 10:44:31 PM

Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:42:05 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 10:40:28 PM
Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:27:45 PM
Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 23, 2015, 10:18:23 PM
Quote from: Kupo on March 23, 2015, 10:03:16 PM
Um, no amount of preparations and evacuations can prevent house floodings and other property damage.

Sandbags
Yeah um no.

Yeah, and that's one scenario. Your statement is too generalized.

"No amount of preparations can prevent house floodings and other property damage".

That simply isn't true.
I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation.

I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm saying you generalized and that it was false. The flooding of houses can be prevented in some cases. You said it couldn't.

In Hurricane Sandy's case, most of the flooding couldn't be prevented.