Well Germany has the right approach here <.<

 
 
Mr. Psychologist
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33464970

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Some men who are sexually attracted to children would like help to change their condition but fear doctors will tell the police. In Germany, though, a campaign is under way to persuade them to sign up for confidential treatment, even if they have abused a child - and doctors are hailing it as a big success.

Max is a science graduate, in his early thirties. Articulate, with a ready smile and an infectious laugh. He could be your neighbour, your work colleague or your sister's new boyfriend. A nice guy. An average bloke. Except he's also a paedophile.

Max is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent girls — typically between the ages of six and 11. It's an urge that for years filled him with self-loathing and despair.

"I would see a girl, and I would undress the girl in my mind, and it was just disgusting, and I'd say to myself: 'Stop this.' And it just wouldn't stop. I had feelings of disgust and fear," he says.

Max has never abused a child sexually, nor does he consume child pornography — itself a form of indirect abuse, because children are usually involved in its production. In fact Max is just one of many people who feel an attraction to children, but who are determined not to act on it.

They are sometimes called celibate or "virtuous" paedophiles. The word "paedophilia" describes the sexual attraction, not the abuse itself, so not all paedophiles are child abusers - and not all child abusers are paedophiles, experts say, since abuse sometimes has other root causes.

Celibate paedophiles are a hidden segment of the population. They have never committed an offence, so are unknown to the police. And because of the taboo - and the fear of violence from people who think they are child abusers - they usually keep their attraction secret.

    There is no such thing as the typical paedophile which people imagine. We are all different
    Max

It's a much bigger group than you might think. Recent research suggests that between 3% and 5% of men, from all social and economic backgrounds, could be sexually attracted to children. Some are attracted only to girls. Others only to boys. Others to both. And some are also attracted to adults.

"I don't have greasy hair, pebble glasses and wear tatty clothes," writes Max in a book he has published to help other paedophiles who don't want to abuse children. "There is no such thing as the typical paedophile which people imagine. We are all different, and completely normal people. The only thing we all have in common is a sexual attraction to children… I am learning to control the sexual side of my feelings."

He's doing that partly thanks to a radical treatment for paedophiles called the Dunkelfeld Prevention Project, which is in operation at 11 different centres across Germany.

For a year he attended group therapy, three hours every week.

"It was very painful," he tells me. "It was about getting to know a side of myself that I had hidden, a side that I didn't like to think about. It's painful to acknowledge that you are a paedophile. It was like standing in front of a mirror, and on the one hand thinking: 'What kind of a monster are you?' But it was also very healthy to stand in front of the mirror and say: 'I'm a paedophile, but that's OK, I won't do anything bad.'
Find out more

You can listen to this report on the PM programme on BBC Radio 4 from 17:00 BST on Monday 13 July.

Or catch up on iPlayer

"A very important thing is acceptance. To be able to think and feel that paedophilia is a part of me, but it's not what defines me. My actions are what define me."

The treatment is a form of cognitive behavioural therapy which analyses past sexual behaviour and feelings, in order to come up with strategies to avoid potentially abusive situations in the future. Some practical advice is very simple, such as never being alone with a child. Other tactics are more complicated, and involve changing attitudes, for example helping the patient to grasp that sexual contact with children can never be consensual.

Controversially, the treatment is also available for men who have abused children in the past — even if that abuse has gone unreported.

So what does a therapist do if a patient says he has abused a child?

"If he comes to us and says, 'I have done something illegal in the past and don't want to do it again,' and that's the normal case for us, then we can help him to build up his self-regulatory behaviour to not do that again," says Dr Anna Konrad of the Charite hospital in Berlin.

But surely, I suggest, it's difficult to sit opposite a man who has abused children and try to help him?

"The main aim of the project is to protect children from being abused, and if I can help the person not to do that again, then for me it's quite clear that I should do that," she says.

In Germany, therapists are not only not obliged to report past abuse to the authorities, it is illegal to violate the principle of patient confidentiality - unlike in Britain, where therapists have a duty to report.

The British approach makes it extremely difficult to treat someone properly, Konrad says. The past behaviour of abusers can't be analysed effectively, and paedophiles rarely come forward for treatment in the first place because of the fear of arrest - if they have committed a crime they are right to be afraid, and even if they haven't they may still consider it too risky.

Max agrees with this.

"A treatment like this can prevent the first offence. Criminalisation — if it works very, very well, and it usually doesn't — can only prevent the second offence," he says.

More than 430 men have started the treatment. And because of a lack of places, there are long waiting lists. Since it was first set up in 2005 more than 5,350 people have contacted the network for advice or to find out more about the therapy. Anna Konrad says patients are asked to fill in a questionnaire at the start of the treatment and at the end - and that a comparison of the two suggests the success rate is good.

"I always knew that I was different, and what others thought about people like me," say masked men in a television commercial — one dressed as a doctor, another as a workman, another as a student.

"No-one is guilty because of their sexual inclination — but everyone is responsible for their behaviour," says the final young man as he takes the mask off, adding: "I don't want to become an offender."

The idea behind the policy is not to help the perpetrator instead of the victim — but rather to help the potential perpetrator, in order to prevent there being a victim in the first place.

tl;dr is that Germany is treating paedophiles in pretty much the best possible way to prevent first and further instances of abuse. If you make the seeking help part of it free from stigma and the like then rather than forcing people to hide and fall prey to their own inclinations (Stuffing skeletons into the closet only works for so long) and then end up crossing the line and ruining the life of another person.

If they can go to a therapist, ask for help and discuss the matter freely without then being thrown in a cell you are much more likely to prevent any future abuse from occuring. If they get thrown in jail and are abused by the public upon learning of their conviction, that's sure as shit going to stop people from seeking help in the first place.

But for discussion here, the controversial part I imagine is where the therapists are obliged by law to not report past abuses where they are in the UK. As an example

UK
Patient explains they abused a child wo years ago
Therapist has to report this by law, then the patient goes to jail and the possibility of helping them is forever trashed. The plus side of course is the justice being done for the victim, but that only goes so far to prevent other victims.

Germany
Patient explains they abused a child two years ago
Therapist is obligated to keep their fucking mouth shut when it comes to patient confidentiality, paedophile is helped to overcome their urges and then never abuses another child again. The down side being that there is no punitive justice for the victim.

So thoughts on the idea of putting prevention before punishment?
Would you rather just see all of them lynched and be done with it?
And what do you think about the way confidentiality is handled between the two systems?


Thun | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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This would never happen In the US. We just love to condemn and punish without really trying to find a solution to the problem. But then, we all can't be like qt Germany.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
It'd be like punishing a psychopath for going on a killing spree.

Like, y'know, he shouldn't have. But he's a psychopath. Except in this case you have the chance of stopping the offender from doing it again. It's the equivalent of hitting a bear for mauling a seal cub.


 
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This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
UK
Patient explains they abused a child wo years ago
Therapist has to report this by law, then the patient goes to jail and the possibility of helping them is forever trashed. The plus side of course is the justice being done for the victim, but that only goes so far to prevent other victims.
I'm almost certain that US law reads the same way, and it's pretty fucking criminal in my eyes. You end up with people who are paranoid wrecks that either snap and injure themselves/others to escape it or end up just sinking further into an abuse filled and disgusting fantasy world until the party van comes to take them away.

Quote
Germany
Patient explains they abused a child two years ago
Therapist is obligated to keep their fucking mouth shut when it comes to patient confidentiality, paedophile is helped to overcome their urges and then never abuses another child again. The down side being that there is no punitive justice for the victim.
If he's guilt-racked enough to confess for treatment, is it worth adding punitive justice to everything the man's already put himself through? “If he has a conscience he will suffer for his mistake. That will be punishment as well as the prison.” - Fyodor Dostoyevsky


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If I'm not here, I'm doing photography. Or I'm asleep. Or in lockdown. One of those three, anyway.

The current titlebar/avatar setup is just normal.
I guess that works in theory.

I'm afraid I'm knackered atm to read past the tldr (will do so tomorrow), but what happens if after/during therapy they do it again?

Does the therapist turn them in and mention the previous abuse?


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Hopefully other countries follow

I'm glad these people try to fight what they know is wrong. Even for the ones that have abused a child.

As much as I want them dead at least they realize what they did was wrong and are trying to prevent themselves from doing something so disgusting again.


 
 
Mr. Psychologist
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<.<
Ditto to what irish said, it's pushing 2am so I shall have to reply to stuff itt in the morning <_<

Too tired lol


 
Elai
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male, he/him

dracula can eat my whole ass!
Good.

We're problem-solving, people.


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UK
Patient explains they abused a child wo years ago
Therapist has to report this by law, then the patient goes to jail and the possibility of helping them is forever trashed. The plus side of course is the justice being done for the victim, but that only goes so far to prevent other victims.
I'm almost certain that US law reads the same way, and it's pretty fucking criminal in my eyes. You end up with people who are paranoid wrecks that either snap and injure themselves/others to escape it or end up just sinking further into an abuse filled and disgusting fantasy world until the party van comes to take them away.

Quote
Germany
Patient explains they abused a child two years ago
Therapist is obligated to keep their fucking mouth shut when it comes to patient confidentiality, paedophile is helped to overcome their urges and then never abuses another child again. The down side being that there is no punitive justice for the victim.
If he's guilt-racked enough to confess for treatment, is it worth adding punitive justice to everything the man's already put himself through? “If he has a conscience he will suffer for his mistake. That will be punishment as well as the prison.” - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
May i say that is one sick ass quote. Time to post it on my facebook.


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It's really scary to see how South African people will get when talking about pedophiles. I can't tell whether they actually have deep-seated hatred for them or just that they enjoy the idea of finally being able to enact mob justice on some group and not feel guilty.


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Quote
Max is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent girls — typically between the ages of six and 11.

God damnit Max you fucking sicko.


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
It'd be like punishing a psychopath for going on a killing spree.
Uh
Yeah, lock the cunt up. Hell, kill him if you want. Stop him from killing. But punitive measures are just pointless. Punishment for the sake of punishment is sadistic, at best.


 
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I DONT GIVE A SINGLE -blam!- MOTHER -blam!-ER ITS A MOTHER -blam!-ING FORUM, OH WOW, YOU HAVE THE WORD NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, HOW MOTHER -blam!-ING COOL, NOT, YOUR ARE NOTHING TO ME BUT A BRAINWASHED PIECE OF SHIT BLOGGER, PEOPLE ONLY LIKE YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE NINJA BELOW YOUR NAME, SO PLEASE PUNCH YOURAELF IN THE FACE AND STAB YOUR EYE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A PIECE OF SHIT OF SOCIETY
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
But you said he shouldn't be punished. As in, not locking him up.
I mean locking people up shouldn't been seen as a punishment. Prisons really ought to be more of a holding pen for the people too psychopathic/narcissistic/whatever to be rehabilitated. Like, obviously we need to do something with them, but I see no reason why locking them up has to be perceived as some kind of "punishment" in the pursuit of justice.

Basically I think the concept of punishment has no place in ethics; the justice system should be concerned with reducing crime, either through deterrence or rehabilitation or whatever. But punishment for its own sake makes no sense.

I don't want to "punish" tornadoes and earthquakes, but I'd lock them up too if I could. It's just the nature of the beast.
Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 06:01:30 AM by Meta Cognition


 
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This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
Not everybody who murders is a psychopath.
Sure, but about 50pc of violent criminals in both the US and the UK have ASPD making them virtually untreatable. And I'm sure there are some non-psychopathic criminals who can't be rehabilitated either.

I'm just saying rehabilitate the ones we can, and remove the ones we can't.


 
 
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<.<
It's really scary to see how South African people will get when talking about pedophiles. I can't tell whether they actually have deep-seated hatred for them or just that they enjoy the idea of finally being able to enact mob justice on some group and not feel guilty.
I think it's probably the latter, it must be hard to not be able to spawn flashmobs and lynch a few random people after a good few centuries of being able to do that willynilly.