Do you think death represents the total end of your experience?

Turkey · October 12, 2015, 10:49:53 PM

Nope.

Winy · October 12, 2015, 10:51:35 PM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 12, 2015, 10:39:43 PM

Quote from: eggsalad on October 12, 2015, 10:37:50 PM
I want an actual answer here.
What is the value of a conversation where all positions and assertions are fundamentally equal?
A discussion where Einsteinian gravity is of equal merit as me smashing my keyboard devalues the idea of communication.
For me the value lies in seeing why people are committed to their beliefs about one form of afterlife, or the lack of any continued perceived existence whatsoever. I honestly do not hold the view that death is the end, and that's part of why I'm excited for it. Knowing that others do not feel the same way is somewhat saddening, in some ways, and conversation is a way to become closer over the matter.

How is it saddening?

Everything that makes me alive stops when I die. My brain shuts off, my heart stops, and my blood stops flowing. To me, there's no logical conclusion that can be made from this other than your sensations stop in all ways. I didn't feel anything before I was born, there's no compelling evidence suggesting I'll feel after, and a lot of sound reasoning suggesting it's the end. I can understand people who want to use faith as a means to justify this belief, but I don't understand how someone can try to reason it.

eggsalad · October 12, 2015, 10:54:51 PM

Quote from: Winy on October 12, 2015, 10:51:35 PM

I didn't feel anything before I was born, there's no compelling evidence suggesting I'll feel after, and a lot of sound reasoning suggesting it's the end.

One could assert that you just had no mechanism of memory before being born. After all none of us can describe the experience of being <2 yet we know we experienced that. Of course it's impossible to describe how experience can be had with no tangible object, I'm just playing devil's advocate for the argument of "I didn't feel being alive before this."

But this raises a great question of how does a being with no aspect of memory experience reality, which to me seems like it couldn't.

Winy · October 12, 2015, 10:56:27 PM

Quote from: eggsalad on October 12, 2015, 10:54:51 PM

Quote from: Winy on October 12, 2015, 10:51:35 PM
I didn't feel anything before I was born, there's no compelling evidence suggesting I'll feel after, and a lot of sound reasoning suggesting it's the end.
One could assert that you just had no mechanism of memory before being born. After all none of us can describe the experience of being <2 yet we know we experienced that. Of course it's impossible to describe how experience can be had with no tangible object, I'm just playing devil's advocate for the argument of "I didn't feel being alive before this."

But it's just that; an assertion. Nothing substantial, and with no actual evidence suggesting it's the truth. I can't very well rationalize the statement, "I met the president" with, "But I just didn't remember it because I couldn't at the time."

Tsirist · October 12, 2015, 10:57:17 PM

Quote from: Winy on October 12, 2015, 10:51:35 PM

How is it saddening?

Everything that makes me alive stops when I die. My brain shuts off, my heart stops, and my blood stops flowing. To me, there's no logical conclusion that can be made from this other than your sensations stop in all ways. I didn't feel anything before I was born, there's no compelling evidence suggesting I'll feel after, and a lot of sound reasoning suggesting it's the end. I can understand people who want to use faith as a means to justify this belief, but I don't understand how someone can try to reason it.

I suppose it's not inherently saddening, but it gets in the way of trying to share my excitement to see what death holds. It's just being hyped up for something nobody else is, that's all.

I'm not sure what sound reason you are referring to. I know there have been times in my life when I have been fully functional as a human that may not have even happened as far as I'm concerned because of the anesthetic drugs I was made to use. Like, knowing that I was conscious, speaking, and performing normally, but not being able to remember it . . . that is what I liken the possibility of death between life to.

The notion of life returning is one I attach to simply for the fact that I am, for some reason, here now.

Winy · October 12, 2015, 11:05:20 PM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 12, 2015, 10:57:17 PM

I'm not sure what sound reason you are referring to. I know there have been times in my life when I have been fully functional as a human that may not have even happened as far as I'm concerned because of the anesthetic drugs I was made to use. Like, knowing that I was conscious, speaking, and performing normally, but not being able to remember it . . . that is what I liken the possibility of death between life to.

But you have records of this happening. Accountability, and observations made by others. More importantly, they're demonstrable. But that line of reasoning can't be magically applied to the concept of death just because it's convenient. Yeah, you didn't really experience it in your normal sense of mind because of the drugs, but you were still there, and still experiencing a provable situation. Death and pre-birth, if you ask me, probably don't work that way. It's very sound reasoning to make this conclusion.

1. Pre-birth: No sensation
2. Life: Sensation
3. Death: Stopping of processes that allow for sensation, revert back to pre-birth

There's just not really anything suggesting otherwise. I'm not saying I know what happens after we die, I'm just saying I very much support the idea that that hypothesis is the most reasonable one.

Tsirist · October 12, 2015, 11:10:39 PM

I agree! The question of experience under the influence of impaired memory with otherwise normal faculties is quite different from the question of experience of death. All I meant was to demonstrate that your comments about bodily death had no bearing on the question of experience/life thereafter.

[edit:] Also wow I didn't expect the poll to end up evening out after that start.

Mad Max · October 12, 2015, 11:17:08 PM

Yes.

The only reason we perceive our existence is because our brain is functioning. Once it ceases to function and our heart stops beating, there's nothing left.

Release · October 12, 2015, 11:40:09 PM

For those of you that say there's probably nothing, or don't expect anything afterwards.......ask yourself, would everything you've been through ever be justified in this life? Like, would anything ever make it all worth it for you?

It doesn't matter what's empirical in this scenario, given the nature of the subject, it will always boil down to belief at this point. If believing in some sort of experience beyond this one brings comfort in any way, is that really so delusional? What's the alternative? To be resigned to the mundane nature of this experience? Measurable evidence is absent for both sides.

At the very least, the following sort of afterlife exists. Like, a corpse buried in a field will nourish the soil, and it can be said some part of that corpse will become a part of the grass of that field. Eventually, the matter in that grass will lead to nourishing a human. We, become a part of something else alive after we die, at the very least.

There's no end, in other words, to our experience.

Kiwicake · October 12, 2015, 11:43:15 PM

I kinda used to wish that stuff like reincarnation was true, it definitely wasn't a healthy thought, considering what I'm dealing with, I'm glad nothing came of it

As of now though, I don't really think anything comes afterwards

Cadenza has moved on · October 12, 2015, 11:54:47 PM

I'm enjoying this life too much for death to stop me.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 12, 2015, 11:55:08 PM

Quote from: Lotus on October 12, 2015, 11:40:09 PM

would everything you've been through ever be justified in this life? Like, would anything ever make it all worth it for you?

I don't live my life with the intention of eternal salvation or damnation. Why would I need to justify my existence in the first place? I didn't really ask to be born in the first place, why is it my job to come up with a reason for it?

Life is what you make it. If life's down, it's because you've failed your ambitions or goals for yourself, not because you didn't live up to a book's definition of being a good person.

And I don't think being fertilizer really counts as an "experience"; you wouldn't even be unconsciously aware of it, much less consciously. Because you're dead.

Release · October 13, 2015, 12:10:06 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 12, 2015, 11:55:08 PM

Quote from: Lotus on October 12, 2015, 11:40:09 PM
would everything you've been through ever be justified in this life? Like, would anything ever make it all worth it for you?
I don't live my life with the intention of eternal salvation or damnation. Why would I need to justify my existence in the first place? I didn't really ask to be born in the first place, why is it my job to come up with a reason for it?

Life is what you make it. If life's down, it's because you've failed your ambitions or goals for yourself, not because you didn't live up to a book's definition of being a good person.

And I don't think being fertilizer really counts as an "experience"; you wouldn't even be unconsciously aware of it, much less consciously. Because you're dead.

No, not justify your existence, I was referring to justifying all the trouble a person will go through. Some people might be inclined to think that nothing in this life will ever make up for all the trouble they've experienced.

Uhm, sure, I don't disagree with that.

And I never said conscious, did I? That's what makes the whole thing interesting.

eggsalad · October 13, 2015, 12:14:45 AM

Quote from: Lotus on October 12, 2015, 11:40:09 PM

For those of you that say there's probably nothing, or don't expect anything afterwards.......ask yourself, would everything you've been through ever be justified in this life? Like, would anything ever make it all worth it for you?

Former question: no. I can solidly say that I'd prefer to never have been born. Latter question: well to me I think a lot of sexual satisfaction could hold me distract me from assessing that so yeah.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 13, 2015, 12:16:53 AM

Quote from: Lotus on October 13, 2015, 12:10:06 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 12, 2015, 11:55:08 PM
Quote from: Lotus on October 12, 2015, 11:40:09 PM
would everything you've been through ever be justified in this life? Like, would anything ever make it all worth it for you?
I don't live my life with the intention of eternal salvation or damnation. Why would I need to justify my existence in the first place? I didn't really ask to be born in the first place, why is it my job to come up with a reason for it?

Life is what you make it. If life's down, it's because you've failed your ambitions or goals for yourself, not because you didn't live up to a book's definition of being a good person.

And I don't think being fertilizer really counts as an "experience"; you wouldn't even be unconsciously aware of it, much less consciously. Because you're dead.

No, not justify your existence, I was referring to justifying all the trouble a person will go through. Some people might be inclined to think that nothing in this life will ever make up for all the trouble they've experienced.

Uhm, sure, I don't disagree with that.

And I never said conscious, did I? That's what makes the whole thing interesting.

Well, that's what I was getting at; you don't need to justify life, because it's not something that really can be. Your life didn't start of your accord and (hopefully) it won't end of your accord. You don't get the choice, so there's no reason to try justifying it. You get the hand you're dealt, end of story.

And that's stretching the OP a bit; it's pretty obviously referring to the concept of an afterlife or extended state of the brain's consciousness post-mortem.

Tsirist · October 13, 2015, 12:21:04 AM

Actually I sometimes wonder if it's possible to "exist" as a rock. Could you have that metaphysical/whatever-explanation interface into such an object such that you could "perceive" its being? Obviously as humans we are, in some ways, just rocks, and our interface is somehow aware of the changes in state within the brain, which themselves can be indicative of changes in state of the body as a whole. So asking what it's like to be fertilizer isn't too far outside my personal scope, but it's not exactly the easiest thing to conceive of/relate to considering.

eggsalad · October 13, 2015, 12:21:54 AM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:21:04 AM

Actually I sometimes wonder if it's possible to "exist" as a rock. Could you have that metaphysical/whatever-explanation interface into such an object such that you could "perceive" its being? Obviously as humans we are, in some ways, just rocks, and our interface is somehow aware of the changes in state within the brain, which themselves can be indicative of changes in state of the body as a whole. So asking what it's like to be fertilizer isn't too far outside my personal scope, but it's not exactly the easiest thing to conceive of/relate to considering.

i remember when i talked about this and fear made me feel bad

Sandtrap · October 13, 2015, 12:22:08 AM

Who can say. What makes me most curious about the subject, are thoughts and ideas. At an atomic level, even our thoughts have a form, to some degree. They have a "grounder," so to speak. They require some form of electromagnetism to exist because biologically a thought is a series of rapid fire biological electrical signals.

But what really intrigues me, is the how. How does that precise firing of electrical signals contain that specific idea, or thought? I don't think we'll ever know. Which, to me, gives me some vague sense that there's something else at work. Behind the scenes, so to speak.

Like a big invisible pool, or framework. I guess you could just call it the sum of everything. It's the root, or the source. Everything that ever was, is, or will be, is in there. Everything comes from it, everything goes back to it. Consider your body as just a grounding anchor. And when you die, that separation of whatever makes you can no longer occur, so you end up losing yourself into that sum collective.

In a sense, you could call that the end of your personal experience. That's always the notion I've had though. And, I don't know why. Had it long before I knew about any religions and what they taught. None of my parents were religious. It just seemed to fit.

But, whether or not I'm a snowballs chance of being right, it doesn't really matter. I'll find out some day anyway. If I do, it's the greatest answer to a question I could ever have. And if I'm wrong, then it's simply nap time.

Release · October 13, 2015, 12:23:05 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on October 13, 2015, 12:14:45 AM

Quote from: Lotus on October 12, 2015, 11:40:09 PM
For those of you that say there's probably nothing, or don't expect anything afterwards.......ask yourself, would everything you've been through ever be justified in this life? Like, would anything ever make it all worth it for you?
Former question: no. I can solidly say that I'd prefer to never have been bored. Latter question: well to me I think a lot of sexual satisfaction could hold me distract me from assessing that so yeah.

lewd

Same, feels like someone should've been born in my place

🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 13, 2015, 12:23:46 AM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:21:04 AM

Actually I sometimes wonder if it's possible to "exist" as a rock.

Rocks don't have brains, or anything comparable to brains; they are just pieces of compacted sediment. You can't exist as a rock, no.

Tsirist · October 13, 2015, 12:26:00 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:23:46 AM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:21:04 AM
Actually I sometimes wonder if it's possible to "exist" as a rock.
Rocks don't have brains, or anything comparable to brains; they are just pieces of compacted sediment. You can't exist as a rock, no.

Rocks are made of the same things humans are, friend. So long as I cannot identify what "part" of me enables me to be here and experience this, I will conclude that such an interface may be more adaptable than that.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 13, 2015, 12:27:50 AM

Quote from: Deadtrap on October 13, 2015, 12:22:08 AM

How does that precise firing of electrical signals contain that specific idea, or thought?

My best explanation is that they don't carry "ideas", but your brain is hard coded to remember stimuli. "Muscle memory" is an example of that; you don't consciously know what you're doing, it's just an evolutionary response to adapt to your environment. If that means learning algebra, then your brain remembers the conditions in which it was stimulated in such a way that it sets a precedent for future encounters to be used and built upon.

Release · October 13, 2015, 12:29:17 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:16:53 AM

Quote from: Lotus on October 13, 2015, 12:10:06 AM
Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 12, 2015, 11:55:08 PM
Quote from: Lotus on October 12, 2015, 11:40:09 PM
would everything you've been through ever be justified in this life? Like, would anything ever make it all worth it for you?
I don't live my life with the intention of eternal salvation or damnation. Why would I need to justify my existence in the first place? I didn't really ask to be born in the first place, why is it my job to come up with a reason for it?

Life is what you make it. If life's down, it's because you've failed your ambitions or goals for yourself, not because you didn't live up to a book's definition of being a good person.

And I don't think being fertilizer really counts as an "experience"; you wouldn't even be unconsciously aware of it, much less consciously. Because you're dead.

No, not justify your existence, I was referring to justifying all the trouble a person will go through. Some people might be inclined to think that nothing in this life will ever make up for all the trouble they've experienced.

Uhm, sure, I don't disagree with that.

And I never said conscious, did I? That's what makes the whole thing interesting.
you don't need to justify life, because it's not something that really can be.

Hmm

Like, it's not intended to be justified? Never thought of it that way.

Maybe it'll make sense someday. That's my hope at least.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 13, 2015, 12:29:58 AM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:26:00 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:21:04 AM
Actually I sometimes wonder if it's possible to "exist" as a rock.
Rocks don't have brains, or anything comparable to brains; they are just pieces of compacted sediment. You can't exist as a rock, no.
Rocks are made of the same things humans are, friend. So long as I cannot identify what "part" of me enables me to be here and experience this, I will conclude that such an interface may be more adaptable than that.

I don't know about you, but no, I am definitely not made of sediment or volcanic ash. This isn't about "interfaces", we aren't monitors or touchscreens; our consciousness is the result of the brain. No brain (or equivalent) means no ability to comprehend existence.

Tsirist · October 13, 2015, 12:34:27 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:29:58 AM

I don't know about you, but no, I am definitely not made of sediment or volcanic ash. This isn't about "interfaces", we aren't monitors or touchscreens; our consciousness is the result of the brain. No brain (or equivalent) means no ability to comprehend existence.

When you break it all down it's all the same stuff; atoms, subatomic particles, oscillating fields. What I'm saying is that I believe that, while consciousness is the result of the brain, perceptual experience is a step beyond that and is not a result of the brain, but instead feeds out some data on the brain's state in the form of experience. I say this because while everything about my body and brain changes all the time, my experience and perception, as a thing unto itself, seems not to.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · October 13, 2015, 12:36:12 AM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:34:27 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:29:58 AM
I don't know about you, but no, I am definitely not made of sediment or volcanic ash. This isn't about "interfaces", we aren't monitors or touchscreens; our consciousness is the result of the brain. No brain (or equivalent) means no ability to comprehend existence.
When you break it all down it's all the same stuff; atoms, subatomic particles, oscillating fields. What I'm saying is that I believe that, while consciousness is the result of the brain, perceptual experience is a step beyond that and is not a result of the brain, but instead feeds out some data on the brain's state in the form of experience. I say this because while everything about my body and brain changes all the time, my experience and perception, as a thing unto itself, seems not to.

Perception is a result of consciousness; consciousness doesn't occur without a brain-equivalent.

And if your perceptions have never changed, you might want to get your noggin' checked. That sounds like a learning disability to me.

eggsalad · October 13, 2015, 12:38:03 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:29:58 AM

Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:26:00 AM
Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:23:46 AM
Quote from: Tsirist on October 13, 2015, 12:21:04 AM
Actually I sometimes wonder if it's possible to "exist" as a rock.
Rocks don't have brains, or anything comparable to brains; they are just pieces of compacted sediment. You can't exist as a rock, no.
Rocks are made of the same things humans are, friend. So long as I cannot identify what "part" of me enables me to be here and experience this, I will conclude that such an interface may be more adaptable than that.
I don't know about you, but no, I am definitely not made of sediment or volcanic ash. This isn't about "interfaces", we aren't monitors or touchscreens; our consciousness is the result of the brain. No brain (or equivalent) means no ability to comprehend existence.

A brain is no more than a system of receptors working in assembly as physics sees fit, how is that a fundamentally different process that produces the sensation of experience (note that this is distinct from simply responding to environmental stimuli)? Component A clicks into Component C and causes a reaction, that reaction is what we experience. However, how is that reaction fundamentally different from two rocks hitting each other? Both are just the same atomic particles interacting in ways that physics dictates.

Sandtrap · October 13, 2015, 12:38:51 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:27:50 AM

Quote from: Deadtrap on October 13, 2015, 12:22:08 AM
How does that precise firing of electrical signals contain that specific idea, or thought?
My best explanation is that they don't carry "ideas", but your brain is hard coded to remember stimuli. "Muscle memory" is an example of that; you don't consciously know what you're doing, it's just an evolutionary response to adapt to your environment. If that means learning algebra, then your brain remembers the conditions in which it was stimulated in such a way that it sets a precedent for future encounters to be used and built upon.

The other thing that intrigues me is of course, the as of yet unexplained. People do a lot of funky ass shit. Some of it can be bunk, no doubt. But then you get weird "reincarnation" shit like kids knowing about locations thousands of miles away. Like I said, most of it sounds sketchy and turns to to be as such. But there's some cases that are just downright fucking spooky.

So precise to the letter even though they've never been there before for absolute certain, they know what's there. You often here stories of twins, for some reason, getting funny feelings about each other. If one's hurt the other one, for some reason, picks up on it.

The thing people like to call intuition, which varies from person to person. That strange feeling you get when you know without a doubt in your mind about what's going to happen.

Supernatural stuff too, I guess. There's a lot of unexplained stuff out there. I'm not too spiritual, funny enough. I like to be grounded here. But, reading up on some cases sometimes makes me wonder.

Verbatim · October 13, 2015, 12:44:26 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on October 13, 2015, 12:38:03 AM

A brain is no more than a system of receptors working in assembly as physics sees fit, how is that a fundamentally different process that produces the sensation of experience (note that this is distinct from simply responding to environmental stimuli)? Component A clicks into Component C and causes a reaction, that reaction is what we experience. However, how is that reaction fundamentally different from two rocks hitting each other? Both are just the same atomic particles interacting in ways that physics dictates.

two rocks bumping into each other does not equal consciousness

what is this pseudo-ontological shit you are spewing right now

Tsirist · October 13, 2015, 12:46:07 AM

Quote from: Prime Megaten on October 13, 2015, 12:36:12 AM

Perception is a result of consciousness; consciousness doesn't occur without a brain-equivalent.

And if your perceptions have never changed, you might want to get your noggin' checked. That sounds like a learning disability to me.

I can't agree with that. I believe perception not to be a result of consciousness; rather, for example, consciousness and unconsciousness are two distinctly different states of perception. During consciousness your perception operates to produce a great variety of output from the massively varying but well-ordered state changes in your brain. During unconsciousness it may still operate but the output is less meaningful or even absent.

My perceptions? Like the things I experience? No, those have changed. My perception, or the act of perceiving, has been largely the same though.

Poll

Do you think death represents the total end of your experience?

Do you think death represents the total end of your experience?