Do you think Africa would be better off...

big sponge · November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM

Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM

Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.

🍁 Aria 🔮 · November 02, 2015, 10:27:05 PM

There were a lot of terrible and good things that came with the colonization. I'm not really sure if it could really be accurately stated whether it would be better or worse off without it.

Luciana · November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM

Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM

Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.

Why is it upside down?

big sponge · November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM

Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?

Ginger · November 03, 2015, 02:01:03 AM

It is a difficult question to answer. The colonization that is often referred to, encroachment inland, did not largely begin until the 1870s. Of course, South Africa was an exception (colonized by the Dutch in 1652), and there were Portuguese trade outposts for slavery to South America before that in modern day Angola and Mozambique, but much of that slave trade had waned in the first half of the 19th century. The African kingdoms were already raiding, capturing and killing one another which made the European conquest of the area easier (and of course the advanced weaponry).

For the most part, the European empires did not go in and simply plant their own leadership. They often looked for cooperative chiefs, or made friends and gave power to indigenous "policemen" and translators. Sometimes they did take out the indigenous leaders, but then they still worked through mid-level authorities to garner support. The leaders and middle-men maintained the local order using their own, slightly altered, customary law.

Yes, there were truly some atrocities that occurred such as the Belgian Congo, the German repression of the Tanganyika uprising in 1905, the Herero revolt, Boer war etc.; however, I think the death toll could have been the same or higher had colonization not occurred. The different African kingdoms and tribes were in a near constant state of conflict, exacerbated by their trade of people for European weapons and sugar. The European empires were charged with instilling regulation and international law on the populations of Africa, and each colonial power agreed to assure the end of traffic in slaves, arms and liquor (see Berlin Conference of 1884-85 and Brussels 1889-90).

As of the early 1900s, interest groups were entering Africa and making public back home the issues of Africa, which prompted the extension of certain rights and social policies (education, etc.) to the African people. During and immediately following WWII, the British and the French renounced the former colonial doctrine, that each colony should pay for itself, and invested in development of their colonies with the idea that each would evolve in its own way and at its own pace. They invested in schools, transportation, communication, housing, healthcare facilities and agricultural projects. In fact, the 1946 French constitution proclaimed that all inhabitants of their colonies possessed the "qualities" of French citizens. Although it was not full equality, it gave people more opportunities, including moving from their African colony to France.

Lastly, not all of the European empires just packed up their stuff and left Africa. In 1958, the French government offered each of their colonies the option of immediate independence or continued participation, with a large amount of self-government, until they could get on their feet. Only Guinea voted for complete separation.

I think, in time, the African countries will find their way. Their participation in the G-77 is allowing them to address their issues on a global scale as a united front. They are also subject to aid funding from certain EU funds such as the Development Cooperation Instrument and the European Development Fund (by way of the Cotonou Agreement) which are intended to help the initiation and stabilization of a firm infrastructure, develop and maintain an open market, and encourage social policy development.

Ushan · November 03, 2015, 02:52:45 AM

Quote from: Sandtrap on November 02, 2015, 11:57:19 AM

Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 11:40:03 AM
Quote from: challengerX on November 02, 2015, 11:37:28 AM
No. That's one of the reasons why it's so fucked up.
Yeah, I hear that's one of the main reasons Africa is currently in the state it is in. How did colonialism screw Africa up so badly anyway?

To sum it up in short, the colonials came in, ran over everybody and everything, really didn't care to put much effort in doing anything decent for the locals, and then set up shop on the south end of Africa, only helping in creating even more disparity after they left.

And they took just about whatever they wanted and sent it all back home, or set up shop.

So now you've got this sort of big divide where southern Africa is slightly more civilized than the north, but all intermushed with tribal customs and traditions and all that. And you've got these exlusive farms that don't actively help or feed the people on africa owned by companies, which instead ship their products out of Africa to the world at large to rake in the free money.

That, loosely, is the deal on things.

Also, a lot of attempts at charity from developed nations end up driving local businesses out, further wrecking the economy.

DAS B00T x2 · November 03, 2015, 05:08:00 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?

I'm pretty sure that the Atlantic ocean was at the center of ever world map I've ever had.

Septy · November 03, 2015, 07:19:59 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?

Since when is this a thing

Turkey · November 03, 2015, 07:21:26 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?

I can't think of any map I've seen that doesn't place the Greenwich Meridian in the center.

Winy · November 03, 2015, 08:59:28 AM

Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 11:40:03 AM

Quote from: challengerX on November 02, 2015, 11:37:28 AM
No. That's one of the reasons why it's so fucked up.
Yeah, I hear that's one of the main reasons Africa is currently in the state it is in. How did colonialism screw Africa up so badly anyway?

Imperialism. Europeans went to Africa, took what the wanted, fucked off, and left the continent in shambles.

big sponge · November 03, 2015, 09:18:51 AM

Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 03, 2015, 05:08:00 AM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on November 03, 2015, 07:21:26 AM

Quote from: Septy on November 03, 2015, 07:19:59 AM

Spoiler

These kinds of maps use to be fairly common.

Spoiler

Depending on the hemisphere you live in you might also get a map like this

DAS B00T x2 · November 03, 2015, 09:39:23 AM

Quote from: Winy on November 03, 2015, 08:59:28 AM

Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 11:40:03 AM
Quote from: challengerX on November 02, 2015, 11:37:28 AM
No. That's one of the reasons why it's so fucked up.
Yeah, I hear that's one of the main reasons Africa is currently in the state it is in. How did colonialism screw Africa up so badly anyway?
Imperialism. Europeans went to Africa, took what the wanted, fucked off, and left the continent in shambles.

It's less "they grabbed what the wanted and fucked off" and more "a combination of armed resistance and social pressure from a post-WWII America left European powers feeling the need to completely withdraw from Africa by the 1960's"

Septy · November 03, 2015, 10:01:14 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 09:18:51 AM

Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 03, 2015, 05:08:00 AM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on November 03, 2015, 07:21:26 AM

Quote from: Septy on November 03, 2015, 07:19:59 AM

Spoiler

These kinds of maps use to be fairly common.

Spoiler

Depending on the hemisphere you live in you might also get a map like this

Thats a navigational chart

It's supposed to divide the oceans in the least amount possible which is why it goes through Asia while leaving the Atlantic and Pacific intact.

Turkey · November 03, 2015, 10:13:19 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 09:18:51 AM

Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 03, 2015, 05:08:00 AM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on November 03, 2015, 07:21:26 AM

Quote from: Septy on November 03, 2015, 07:19:59 AM

Spoiler

These kinds of maps use to be fairly common.

Spoiler

Depending on the hemisphere you live in you might also get a map like this

None of those are commonly used projections, though. For educational or illustrative purposes it makes sense to put your home in the center, but America isn't in the center of any real world map or chart. Pretty much any time a map is used it's broken up into sectionals, anyway.

big sponge · November 03, 2015, 10:15:19 AM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on November 03, 2015, 10:13:19 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 09:18:51 AM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 03, 2015, 05:08:00 AM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on November 03, 2015, 07:21:26 AM

Quote from: Septy on November 03, 2015, 07:19:59 AM

Spoiler

These kinds of maps use to be fairly common.

Spoiler

Depending on the hemisphere you live in you might also get a map like this

None of those are commonly used projections, though. For educational or illustrative purposes it makes sense to put your home in the center, but America isn't in the center of any real world map or chart. Pretty much any time a map is used it's broken up into sectionals, anyway.

That doesn't change the fact that those maps use to be fairly common.

MyNameIsCharlie · November 03, 2015, 10:28:55 AM

Hmmm... Now isn't this what Cortana was trying to do in Halo 5? Isn't this the Mantle?

Luciana · November 03, 2015, 10:45:12 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?

Well all the maps I see from NA are New World is on the left (western hemisphere), and Old World on the right. The middle is just the Atlantic.

big sponge · November 03, 2015, 10:46:46 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 03, 2015, 10:45:12 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM
Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?
Well all the maps I see from NA are New World is on the left (western hemisphere), and Old World on the right. The middle is just the Atlantic.

Look up. A lot of maps made in the US use to place it in the center. Eurasia was split in two for these.

Luciana · November 03, 2015, 10:56:12 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 10:46:46 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 03, 2015, 10:45:12 AM
Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM
Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?
Well all the maps I see from NA are New World is on the left (western hemisphere), and Old World on the right. The middle is just the Atlantic.

Look up. A lot of maps made in the US use to place it in the center. Eurasia was split in two for these.

Yeah I've seen em, but never once in school or anything educational did I see it being used. Plus it's just ugly.

big sponge · November 03, 2015, 10:57:05 AM

Quote from: Septy on November 03, 2015, 10:01:14 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 09:18:51 AM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 03, 2015, 05:08:00 AM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on November 03, 2015, 07:21:26 AM

Quote from: Septy on November 03, 2015, 07:19:59 AM

Spoiler

These kinds of maps use to be fairly common.

Spoiler

Depending on the hemisphere you live in you might also get a map like this
Thats a navigational chart

It's supposed to divide the oceans in the least amount possible which is why it goes through Asia while leaving the Atlantic and Pacific intact.

Umm no, there are many maps that are made with the South at the top, however most are made for the purpose of challenging convention. Orientation of the continents wouldn't matter for a navigational chart. You'd still have the same amount of water regardless of whether north or south was on the top or bottom.

Spoiler

big sponge · November 03, 2015, 10:58:04 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 03, 2015, 10:56:12 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 10:46:46 AM
Quote from: Luciana on November 03, 2015, 10:45:12 AM
Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM
Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?
Well all the maps I see from NA are New World is on the left (western hemisphere), and Old World on the right. The middle is just the Atlantic.

Look up. A lot of maps made in the US use to place it in the center. Eurasia was split in two for these.
Yeah I've seen em, but never once in school or anything educational did I see it being used. Plus it's just ugly.

I saw them being used all the time in elementary and middle school back when I was a kid. Hence me saying "they use to be pretty common".

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · November 03, 2015, 11:00:59 AM

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Luciana · November 03, 2015, 11:02:01 AM

Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 10:58:04 AM

Quote from: Luciana on November 03, 2015, 10:56:12 AM
Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 10:46:46 AM
Quote from: Luciana on November 03, 2015, 10:45:12 AM
Quote from: LC on November 03, 2015, 12:40:32 AM
Quote from: Luciana on November 02, 2015, 11:49:08 PM
Quote from: LC on November 02, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
Quote from: Jagdtiger on November 02, 2015, 04:42:36 PM
Quote from: Fagcicle on November 02, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: DAS B(⌐■_■)ﾒ on November 02, 2015, 01:54:26 PM
I'm trying to imagine what modern colonialism involving the major European powers would look like...and honestly, it's looking good for modern Africa.
More doctors and hospitals, actual jobs, better infrastructure, human rights and civil liberties...

It would require a complete redraw of the African map
What do you think the map of Africa would look like if it wasn't colonized?

Apparently this is an educated guess.
Why is it upside down?

Why do maps made in NA, Europe, and Asia place their respective continents in the center?
Well all the maps I see from NA are New World is on the left (western hemisphere), and Old World on the right. The middle is just the Atlantic.

Look up. A lot of maps made in the US use to place it in the center. Eurasia was split in two for these.
Yeah I've seen em, but never once in school or anything educational did I see it being used. Plus it's just ugly.

I saw them being used all the time in elementary and middle school back when I was a kid. Hence me saying "they use to be pretty common".

Really? Huh.

I think we can both agree they're just awful to look at.

big sponge · November 03, 2015, 11:02:16 AM

No idea, this shouldn't even be an argument.

Korra · November 03, 2015, 12:20:17 PM

LC is always right guys.

Bright Wind Eternal Stars · November 05, 2015, 11:41:33 AM

Overall considering that Europeans screwed it up so bad probably. It would have not been an ideal situation but at least you would have had stronger and hopefully less corrupt central governments. The real issue is that European powers gave no regard to ethnic and tribal issues when it came to determining borders.. They drew the maps blindly and did not think about how borders drawn by powerful white people would effect the native populations.