I'm surprised such a controversial issue hasn't been discussed here yet, so I'm doing it now. Here is a rough description of events, but tl;dr version is that an oil pipeline has been constructed through the midwest and is approximately 60% complete. The final chokepoint lies near an Iowan Sioux reservation. Initially, the tribe was offered $15M to have the pipeline go directly through the reservation; they countered with an offer for $50M, and so it was decided that it should go through a nearby utility corridor located on private property and already contains numerous other utility lines including gas and eight oil pipelines.

The tribe claims this presents a threat to their water supply, despite the fact that pipelines are significantly safer than transportation by train, and this pipeline would drastically reduce the potential for spillage in the routed states. The tribe also claims this endangers important cultural sites, despite no evidence that this is true and the fact that numerous studies have been done for this pipeline, in addition to the numerous other utilities lines and pipelines going through the same corridor decades ago. In addition, protests have been far from peaceful, with barricades constructed of burning tires, National Guard vehicles burned, and journalists have been threatened.

Do you believe the protests have merit?

Government has a history of fucking over Natives, again and again and again and again.

But should that justify what's happening here? The pipeline isn't going through their land (it's through private property), and the tribe has already allowed many other pipelines going through the same location. The success of the protest will not affect the safety of their drinking water (though it's arguably much safer than transportation via railcar -- pipelines also result in much less carbon emission). There is, essentially, nothing at stake for the Sioux tribe.

Another subject worth discussing is whether the constant attempt at reparations has done any good at all for Native Americans -- reservations are often filthy and poorly managed, residents are four times as likely to die from alcohol related incidents, and they tend to be literal welfare states with outdated and unsafe utilities.

I'm trying to find more info on this, but from what I've found, I see no reason not to build the pipeline.  To break it down, it seems like a case of "the needs of the many outweigh the few" as this would help in gaining energy independence.  I don understand the danger of it crossing the Mississippi river, but other than that, to hell with cultural bullshit, even though it would seem to be on private property anyway.  I don't really know the scope of the protests, but from what I've seen, it just seems like a bunch of people virtue signalling, and of course not understanding the full story of building the pipeline to begin with.

Quote from: Sαndtrap on November 03, 2016, 12:40:00 PM

If there's one industry that needs to die, it's the oil industry. They've been holding things back for too long and riding on what by now, should be an obsolete usage of technology.

Everything else aside, oil won't go away until it's depleted (and there are more sources found every year). As a fuel, it's irreplaceable in machines which require a large amount of fuel, like industrial machines, planes, or generators. The ability to replace small engines with an electric battery is quite literally a first-world privilege. Even if 100% of fuel-burning engines were converted to electricity, roughly 40% of all the crude oil produced would still be used for synthetic manufacturing or generating that electricity.

I'm aware that the oil monster won't catch a cold and die off like it should any time soon. But it isn't doing me any good to be sitting here and know how much damage the industry causes, and how so little much of a shit the owners give about what they're doing to our world. And they won't ever pay for it. The generations born long after they're gone will.

I know there's a pollution cost to everything we do. It's hard to get away from. But imagine what we could accomplish if those companies stopped holding everything back. Instead of investing so much for their own gain it'd be nice to see what could be done if they invested in finding better technology.

I've got a question for you in regards to technology. Generators. Planes. Industrial grade machines. Why do we need them so badly? Are they really such a neccessity? People got along fine without their presence before they were invented. This doesn't advocate going back to the dark ages by the way. Just a consideration to take into account.

I'll leave this here for you before I doze off Turkey. Here's my line of thought as to why I question if some of our heavier polluting technolgies are really neccessary.

I wanted to build my home. And I wanted to make it self sufficient. I was saving up for solar cells, a battery bank, and I'd already built myself a wind turbine with an old alternator. That was the first thing on my checklist. My end tier goal was to eventually modify my vehicle for using some other means of fuel.

I wanted those things because I'm not a fan of being dependant on providers who can and have failed to provide what they were selling. And, of course, I wanted to minimize my pollution output as much as possible. All of these things were possible for me to do on my own.

Secondly, if you talk to any person who's lived in my province for most of their lifespan, you'd soon find out that 40 years ago, this province had little to no electricty. Only the larger cities did. Go back 50 to 60 years? This province had no roads. No highways. No automated vehicles. More or less, the people here got along fine without those things. And they still do. There's rural parts to my province that still have no roads and no power.

While a lot of the technologies and changes introduced in the last 60 years have been beneficial in some way, most have come with a great cost in their own right.

This is something I mull over in all my spare time now. Why is it seemingly not possible to live simpler for people, without stepping back into the dark ages? Without needing all the excess and wasteful things our society currently produces?