Cindo's Controversial Thread of the Week: Masculinity and Femininity

Fuck this, I'm not getting into another discussion on gender.

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I think feminine men are disgusting. If you're a man, you're a man. If you're a woman, you're a woman. I don't even like very feminine women all that much.

Hyper-masculinity is pretty disgusting too, or annoying.

It's obviously nowhere near the level of acceptance of women wearing masculine clothing, but I feel like men crossdressing or wearing feminine clothing is more "okay" now than it used to be. They still get a lot of flak, but I don't think I've ever seen someone call RuPaul's Drag Race the work of Satan.

I dunno. Some of my best guy-friends are v-neck and skinny shorts wearing, man-bun having metrosexual assholes. Maybe I'm just not exposed enough to that to the hatred in Western society.

I think feminine men are disgusting. If you're a man, you're a man. If you're a woman, you're a woman. I don't even like very feminine women all that much.

Thus, uh

Thus proving my point

Well that's because sissy traits suck.  Pretty sure men only put up with girls like that for sex.  I mean, who wants to cry all the time or be afraid of everything?  Men are hormonally superior.

I'll start off myself with a simple truth at the core of who I am, that men and women are fundamentally, biologically, different from one another. We are both complimentary to one another and both mean and women need eachother, we cannot exist independently of one another so the idea that one sex is simply better than the other does not make sense. How can a circle be better than the number 7? that doesn't make any sense.

Of course there ARE areas of expertise at which men and women naturally have different levels of competency at; I was at a military experience day a while back and it was amazing how every girl was able to quickly and easily interact with every other girl as though they had always been friends, while it took us men considerably longer to get to the acquaintance level of interaction.

Likewise, I fucking love maths, I've gone over it's several thousand year history and found amongst hundreds of noteworthy men, only two women - Meanwhile in my personal life, the best mathematician I've ever met was the female embodiment of Clint Eastwood,  but she is the only exception amongst all the men.

Again, men and women are different kinds of people so of course they will have different skills set - it's quite obvious that man's technical skillset is more useful for advancing technology and society, but it is all completely useless without women to hold it together.
So with this all in mind:

has an inherently negative opinion of femininity as a trait on average, and things associated with said trait are continued to be negatives at face value.

This is simply wrong- Western society simply acknowledges men and women as different; it certainly places obvious value on man's ability to keep us alive with technology and hard work, but it still has the subtle appreciation for good and honest women who keep society alive and families together. Any instance of society where this is not the case is broken.

You can argue all you want about "pussy pass" bullshit and other ways that people like to argue that women have more privilege in society than men, but the fact is that for a VAST amount of history, women have been INCREDIBLY disadvantaged in comparison to men. Disproportionate advantages and prejudices still exist in today's society as well, of course, but the massive ravine has closed over the years into a pretty damn small gap, so that's not the sort of thing I'll be focusing on today - gender stereotypes and societal discrimination against women may be related to the topic I'm discussing, but it's a whole different can of fuckin' worms, it is.

Whichever one caused the other, women were usually held to generally be worse than men in pretty much all facets of life (save for childcare and cleaning, I guess) until very recently, and there also exists a very negative view on femininity. This negative view may not be as prevalent, since most people don't usually think of women as the "lesser sex" in the modern day, but the sentiment is still very much there despite it being mostly subconscious.

I suppose my response to this section is already typed out above.

To start off with the type that most on this board will relate to, let's look first at cis, straight people. Clothing, to be more exact. Whatever the crazies on the far corners of Tumblr might like saying, clothing is gendered - it may have been defined as such by society, sure, but you can't deny that a full tuxedo suit is much more masculine while a billowy ball gown is much more feminine due to how we define those things as a society. Why, then are women dressing in men's clothes so much more well-respected? A woman dressing in her boyfriend's boxers, or wearing his loose t-shirt, or wearing pants, or wearing a suit - none of these things are looked at negatively. Hell, a few are looked at as playful or sexy. But the response to a fully straight man wearing a dress, panties, bra, blouse, or any other of a number of feminine articles of clothing? Usually it's either defined as a very odd and private fetish or as homosexual urges.

Clothing is of course an extension of the differences between men and women, nothing complicated there. you admit yourself that the first two examples are just fetishes, not really much point in bringing them up. I myself would argue that women in pants is also a bit of a fetish provided the pants are tight enough and the girl has a good figure. As for women wearing suits, I can't help but feel that they're trying to hard to be a man, that doesn't make me respect them, but at the same time if we're talking suits we must be talking about important business, so anyone qualified to wear a suit is automatically worthy of respect regardless of sex - and that's the key point here, there is no situation in which a man or woman gains respect by walking around in their underwear, an professional business is by and large a male invention so of course the de facto style is male.

Moving a bit further, let's move on to homosexuality. Up until recently, homosexuality was not widely accepted, and still remains hated in many smaller communities. However it is often joked about that the "LGBT" acronym is ordered from least to most accepted, and I'll be using those first two letters for this example. Lesbians were typically (and still are, really) heavily fetishized and talked up, and many people who would speak out against homosexual behavior in men would still find two girls going at it to be lovely. Now, all assertions of which one a straight man might be attracted to aside - as true as those statements may be - we're talking about society's attitudes towards an action, not which one you wanna bust a nut to on a lonely friday afternoon. Gay men are often stereotyped as flamboyant, sassy, stuck-up, obsessed with fashion, or a number of other traits that all boil down to that same notion of feminine traits - likely due to the fact that if anybody wants to fuck another dude, they've got to be like a girl, right?

I would argue that the greater of acceptance of lesbians over gays is because AIDS and HIV are very real, very disgusting things - and the general idea of ejaculating into a shit filled hole is not appealing to most people. I would also argue that gay pride parades only solidify those stereotypes, if that's the identity they want people to recognize them then they have to live with people recognizing it as weird. Also I wouldn't class those stereotypes as acting like a girl, no respectable girl acts like that.

I'll just speak my mind here. I don't hate you LGBT people and have no intention of harassing you but your entire existence is something that bugs me on a fundamental level, I don't like this hypocritical push to make you all considered normal while your entire identity as a group is based on being NOT normal. There's a MtF pre hormones at my school and they are a brilliant chemist, easily the best I know; I don't have a problem with them because they don't go out of their way to make everything about their condition, though I don't spend any considerable amount of time talking to them.

I'm getting really rambly now but I think I'd enjoy getting to talk about this more, no hatred or malice just curiosity about a different way of life.

I'll just speak my mind here. I don't hate you LGBT people and have no intention of harassing you but your entire existence is something that bugs me on a fundamental level, I don't like this hypocritical push to make you all considered normal while your entire identity as a group is based on being NOT normal.

When LGBT fight to be normal they aren't fighting to be part of the statistic majority, they are asking to be treated like equal human beings. Just because blue-eyes are a minority demographic doesn't mean a blue-eyed person is someone you consider abnormal in most contexts.

Hey Trump called, he's looking for someone to make his wall.

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It's really just a non issue to me as a classical liberal.

Like, oh wow, someone thinks you're weird for dressing up in the adjacent gender's clothing. Let me get the waambulance on the phone.

There's honestly more important stuff in the world to be hand wringing about, like say, actual oppression of women in predominately Islamic countries.

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There's honestly more important stuff in the world to be hand wringing about, like say, actual oppression of women in predominately Islamic countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation

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Feminists don't really seem to care about the intense oppression of Muslim women though. In fact, many of them (being liberals) go with the whole "it's their culture, who are we to judge" bullshit.

haven't heard this from any feminist i know of

There's honestly more important stuff in the world to be hand wringing about, like say, actual oppression of women in predominately Islamic countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation

This would only be a fallacy if the issue OP raised was actually an issue.

There's honestly more important stuff in the world to be hand wringing about, like say, actual oppression of women in predominately Islamic countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation

This would only be a fallacy if the issue OP raised was actually an issue.

so it's a definitely a fallacy then

because just earlier, you conceded that it was a non-issue "for you"
well, not everyone's you

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There's honestly more important stuff in the world to be hand wringing about, like say, actual oppression of women in predominately Islamic countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation

This would only be a fallacy if the issue OP raised was actually an issue.

so it's a definitely a fallacy then

because just earlier, you conceded that it was a non-issue "for you"
well, not everyone's you

What exactly are the serious repercussions that arise from issues like these sans being a little emotionally uncomfortable over what people think of you then? Nothing really springs to mind for me.

More to the point, what exactly are the solutions for this alleged problem?

American third wave feminists trivialize themselves.

I think feminine men are disgusting. If you're a man, you're a man. If you're a woman, you're a woman. I don't even like very feminine women all that much.

Hyper-masculinity is pretty disgusting too, or annoying.

Well you see jocks and such really aren't all that masculine, they just have shitty personalities and are disgusting people.

And girly girls just have childish and annoying personalities.

buckle up, buckaroo

buckle up, buckaroo

Yes, that was the joke

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It's really just a non issue to me as a classical liberal.

Like, oh wow, someone thinks you're weird for dressing up in the adjacent gender's clothing. Let me get the waambulance on the phone.

There's honestly more important stuff in the world to be hand wringing about, like say, actual oppression of women in predominately Islamic countries.

As verb linked, this is a fallacy

Just because others are experiencing larger problems doesn't mean that other problems don't exist - and just because there is plain and simple obvious oppression of women happening in the islamic world doesn't mean that there aren't smaller and more subtle prejudices against women in the west, or that trans acceptance is still a very necessary issue.

Likewise, I fucking love maths, I've gone over it's several thousand year history and found amongst hundreds of noteworthy men, only two women - Meanwhile in my personal life, the best mathematician I've ever met was the female embodiment of Clint Eastwood,  but she is the only exception amongst all the men.

No offense, but a personal anecdote doesn't have much sway - I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that you can't apply your personal experience to the world.

What's more, you're simply proving my point - associating mathematics and the like with masculine qualities and stating that women inherently find them less interesting. I won't go so far as to say that you're specifically implying that they're negatives, but I will say that the way it's worded sort of hints in that direction when reading between the lines.

This is simply wrong- Western society simply acknowledges men and women as different; it certainly places obvious value on man's ability to keep us alive with technology and hard work, but it still has the subtle appreciation for good and honest women who keep society alive and families together. Any instance of society where this is not the case is broken.

Correlation does not equal causation, and the fact that men go into primarily technical fields and have overall shown more lean towards those types of things does not mean that women are not important to the field or should be discredited. Women have played major roles in the establishment of programming, DNA mapping, computing, and many more areas of science and mathematics.

What's more, a culture that describes these "necessary" things as "masculine" inherently discourages women from the fields.

Clothing is of course an extension of the differences between men and women, nothing complicated there. you admit yourself that the first two examples are just fetishes, not really much point in bringing them up. I myself would argue that women in pants is also a bit of a fetish provided the pants are tight enough and the girl has a good figure. As for women wearing suits, I can't help but feel that they're trying to hard to be a man, that doesn't make me respect them, but at the same time if we're talking suits we must be talking about important business, so anyone qualified to wear a suit is automatically worthy of respect regardless of sex - and that's the key point here, there is no situation in which a man or woman gains respect by walking around in their underwear, an professional business is by and large a male invention so of course the de facto style is male.

I don't mean to come off as a cunt here, but...you've just completely misread my entire argument on this factor. I'm questioning WHY males wearing feminine clothes is only regarded as a fetish whilst women in masculine clothes is regarded as normal and possibly even more normal than more outwardly feminine clothes in this day and age.

And clothes aren't inherently gendered - they're only labeled as such because of the notions that society has given them. Plenty of cultures had dress or skirt-like clothing for men and women alike.

I would argue that the greater of acceptance of lesbians over gays is because AIDS and HIV are very real, very disgusting things - and the general idea of ejaculating into a shit filled hole is not appealing to most people. I would also argue that gay pride parades only solidify those stereotypes, if that's the identity they want people to recognize them then they have to live with people recognizing it as weird. Also I wouldn't class those stereotypes as acting like a girl, no respectable girl acts like that.

Yeah, that's why anal is such a huge kink among straight men, right? Because who would find the idea of fucking butts to be attractive or anything?

And once again, you've only been reinforcing my point. Why is it not "respectable" to act more effeminate? This is exactly the sort of thing I'm referring to when I say that society has an inherently negative view of femininity.

I'll just speak my mind here. I don't hate you LGBT people and have no intention of harassing you but your entire existence is something that bugs me on a fundamental level, I don't like this hypocritical push to make you all considered normal while your entire identity as a group is based on being NOT normal. There's a MtF pre hormones at my school and they are a brilliant chemist, easily the best I know; I don't have a problem with them because they don't go out of their way to make everything about their condition, though I don't spend any considerable amount of time talking to them.

Our entire identity as a group is on attempting to be viewed as normal. You misunderstand the reason of the LGBT community to constantly talk about their issues and plights - it's not to make themselves stand off as something "special" or "weird" or "offbrand" or "different", it's about trying to normalize these ideas in the heads of everyone else and get the concept in their heads that it's not something that should be shunned or ignored or hated.

That's the whole point. We want these things to be normal, but we don't want to be forced into a strict, pre-define concept of "normality" that was decided for us without regard to our issues.

I'm getting really rambly now but I think I'd enjoy getting to talk about this more, no hatred or malice just curiosity about a different way of life.

I appreciate your willingness to learn more on these issues.

>tfw ignored

>tfw suq madiq

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No offense, but a personal anecdote doesn't have much sway - I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that you can't apply your personal experience to the world.

What's more, you're simply proving my point - associating mathematics and the like with masculine qualities and stating that women inherently find them less interesting. I won't go so far as to say that you're specifically implying that they're negatives, but I will say that the way it's worded sort of hints in that direction when reading between the lines.

There is nothing wrong with any given person not being interested in any given field; I don't think most women's lack of interest in maths is bad per se, though It really limits how many people I can share it with.

It's just that maths is a field of study made by men to answer questions asked by them; any woman with access to the people/books/education institutes could join in, but most don't, and this trend goes back at least to ancient Greece. And when I think about it, it's not the maths itself that's masculine, but the applications of it - just studying algebra for the sake of it has nothing to do with humans of any kind, but solving an engineering problem is definitely masculine, and for that you need algebra.

Correlation does not equal causation, and the fact that men go into primarily technical fields and have overall shown more lean towards those types of things does not mean that women are not important to the field or should be discredited. Women have played major roles in the establishment of programming, DNA mapping, computing, and many more areas of science and mathematics.

What's more, a culture that describes these "necessary" things as "masculine" inherently discourages women from the fields.

I agree and have nothing against the contributions of the women who do choose to contribute, but I am concerned that their contributions may come at a cost to them having their own families.

I don't mean to come off as a cunt here, but...you've just completely misread my entire argument on this factor. I'm questioning WHY males wearing feminine clothes is only regarded as a fetish whilst women in masculine clothes is regarded as normal and possibly even more normal than more outwardly feminine clothes in this day and age.

And clothes aren't inherently gendered - they're only labeled as such because of the notions that society has given them. Plenty of cultures had dress or skirt-like clothing for men and women alike.

You're not coming off as a cunt.

And I thought I stated my point, men's business clothes carry a level of respect with them due to the qualifications required to wear one, and I forgot to mention but also the financial implications of being able to afford one. Casual clothes of men and women carry no such connotations, so when someone wears the casual clothes of the opposite sex it isn't for respect; the only reason I can think of is that it's for sexual reasons.

Yeah, that's why anal is such a huge kink among straight men, right? Because who would find the idea of fucking butts to be attractive or anything?

And once again, you've only been reinforcing my point. Why is it not "respectable" to act more effeminate? This is exactly the sort of thing I'm referring to when I say that society has an inherently negative view of femininity.

I don't like anal, I do not understand the appeal at all; a tube full of shit is just as disgusting to me regardless of who or what it is attached to; going further and sticking your dick in it, especially when if it's a women then there is a perfectly good vagina right there, makes no sense to me. I can handle perverted things but not anal.

I don't see anything wrong with women being effeminate, that's how they evolved to be and it's how i find myself attracted to them. Likewise I do have a problem with men being effeminate because that isn't how they evolved to be and as a result it leaves me deeply confused about them - the only times when I would ever act like that, or any of my friends would act like that, is as a joke.

I appreciate your willingness to learn more on these issues.

I'm finding this quite helpful typing out these ideas to someone like you, I don't get this kind of confrontation of my opinions from anyone I know and I'm getting the feeling that I wouldn't have as much of a problem with you LGBT if all discussions on it were better informed.

I agree and have nothing against the contributions of the women who do choose to contribute, but I am concerned that their contributions may come at a cost to them having their own families.

Are you trying to say it's impossible for a father to be the primary caretaker? Most are built up by societal pressures to be career oriented, but nothing about being male makes you a worse parent.

And I thought I stated my point, men's business clothes carry a level of respect with them due to the qualifications required to wear one, and I forgot to mention but also the financial implications of being able to afford one. Casual clothes of men and women carry no such connotations, so when someone wears the casual clothes of the opposite sex it isn't for respect; the only reason I can think of is that it's for sexual reasons.

Doesn't really hold up. A guy wearing a skirt and a guy wearing a regal wedding dress are both going to get mocked. And there's a lot of reasons to wear clothes other than sexual reasons. Skirts solve sweaty balls.

I don't see anything wrong with women being effeminate, that's how they evolved to be and it's how i find myself attracted to them. Likewise I do have a problem with men being effeminate because that isn't how they evolved to be and as a result it leaves me deeply confused about them - the only times when I would ever act like that, or any of my friends would act like that, is as a joke.

What significance does "evolve to be" have?

I guess I really just don't understand this mindset. What does it matter if on aggregate males evolved to act masculine? The aggregate doesn't apply to individuals. What about them not fulfilling this archaic and outdated social role is so upsetting? Don't you think this is you letting your sexuality make judgements?