Can someone help me understand God, sin, and Jesus' sacrifice?

Mad Max · March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM

https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/104760556/0/0/1
Some things just don't line up.

Here's what we know:
- God's love is unconditional
- Jesus died for our sins

God, for whatever reason, decided to create things that were sinful. Later, Jesus died and paid the debt on our sins. However, we must still seek forgiveness for ours sins.

...why? If Jesus' death was to absolve us of our sins, why must we still seek forgiveness? If God's love is truly unconditional, why must we still seek forgiveness for the sins that Jesus died to cleanse us of?

aREALgod · March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM

This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol

BrenMan 94 · March 02, 2015, 03:26:16 PM

It's my personal belief that Jesus' death absolved humanity for its sins. Until judgment day everyone goes to purgatory (a waiting room). On judgment day everyone is given an account of their sins, and can choose to either seek forgiveness (accepting God as the one true god and Jesus as His son) or deny God's will. The former will go to Heaven, the latter to Hell. That's the only way I see that works with scripture and explains whether or not an isolated tribesman in the Amazon who has never heard of God still gets a chance.

Assuming God is real, of course.

The Lord Slide Rule · March 02, 2015, 03:28:46 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM

This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol

you're telling them god made them retarded lol

aREALgod · March 02, 2015, 03:29:54 PM

Quote from: SexyBarracuda on March 02, 2015, 03:28:46 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol
you're telling them god made them retarded lol

You should see this comment chain, it's too good. I don't know how they haven't picked up on my trolling yet, this is too easy.

Mad Max · March 02, 2015, 03:35:34 PM

Quote

Assuming God is real, of course.

But of course.

Quote from: BrenMan 94 on March 02, 2015, 03:26:16 PM

It's my personal belief that Jesus' death absolved humanity for its sins. Until judgment day everyone goes to purgatory (a waiting room). On judgment day everyone is given an account of their sins, and can choose to either seek forgiveness (accepting God as the one true god and Jesus as His son) or deny God's will. The former will go to Heaven, the latter to Hell. That's the only way I see that works with scripture and explains whether or not an isolated tribesman in the Amazon who has never heard of God still gets a chance.

But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

It would seem that if you removed Jesus' death entirely, the end result would still be the same - having to answer for your sins on judgement day.

More Than Mortal · March 02, 2015, 03:37:23 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 03:35:34 PM

But if that's the case, what's the whole point in Jesus' sacrifice? If Jesus' death on the cross doesn't absolve us of our sins, why is "Jesus died for your sins" perpetuated?

My philosophy teacher, who's a Christian, can't answer that.

So I've been waiting to ask Turkey >.>

Mr. Psychologist · March 02, 2015, 04:15:10 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM

This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol

Link plix

big sponge · March 02, 2015, 04:23:50 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:29:54 PM

Quote from: SexyBarracuda on March 02, 2015, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol
you're telling them god made them retarded lol

You should see this comment chain, it's too good. I don't know how they haven't picked up on my trolling yet, this is too easy.

Bruh

It's youtube.

aREALgod · March 02, 2015, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Mr Psychologist on March 02, 2015, 04:15:10 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol
Link plix

Spoiler

Original comment - "I'm an atheist in a Christian family. I'm always like "How the fuck can you believe this shit?!"

Commence trolling. My replies are in bold. This is still an ongoing thing, lol, I just replied to him again shortly before pasting this.

>God made you wrong for a reason. Enjoy Hell, sinner

>so god created him, just to send him to eternal damnation? Thats disgusting. You sir, are delusional.

>And I suppose you want to join him. Maybe God made you better, but if you don't change your path of life you'll be right there in Hell with him

>take your preaching elsewhere. Sucks you are wasting your whole life being close minded. Goodbye sir.

>lol, just means more elbow space in Heaven for me. A shame you choose damnation.

>Midget, you sir are an asshole. I am a former Christian who renounced his faith after a four month period of searching. The hypocrisy of Christians (as you have so kindly demonstrated) is one of the major reasons I renounced my faith. The other major reason is that I found no scientific evidence for creationism or god in general, but I found loads of evidence for evolutionism and the Big Bang. That's a discussion for another time though.

>@Brunette Those who willingly choose to go to Hell have no sympathy from me, unlike those who are damned from birth.

>@Midget HEY, fuck off.

>That would imply masturbation, which is a sin that sends you to Hell. Stop trying to make me sin, you atheist scum. You're already going to Hell, don't try to drag me down with you.

>Lolololol seriously dude? Seriously? Ok, maybe this is more up your alley... You are a fundamentalist fucking scum piece of garbage. gtfo.

>@Midget What audacity you have to believe that you will be one of the 144,000 who will be allowed into heaven . With all that language you are throwing around at the creators creations I don't think you will make the cut...oh poo I think I may have just made you start searching for the verse that says only 144,000 will enter heaven HAVE FUN!

>The only fundamentals I see is how you're fundamentally sending yourself to Hell. But that's not my problem. It's funny how mad you get when I tell you the truth. If you don't want to burn in Hell then why deny God?

>I've already made the cut. Believing in God is enough, but you pathetically don't realize that and denounce His name. I know your name won't be on that list, and that's a fact. Enjoy Hell.

>Shut the fuck up already you worthless piece of shit. You're giving your entire God damn religion a bad name.

>How am I, exactly? I'm only telling the truth as God Himself has said it. Unless you change your path of sin you're going to Hell. But that truth hurts, doesn't it? Sinner

>@Midget You need evidence. Sufficient evidence. The bible is not a piece of evidence.

>You're portraying Christianity as a religion where the only thing whose followers do is condemn non believers. The truth is that this is the only life we have and you're doing a shitty ass job of making yours worth something.

>The Bible is a material thing, therefore it is.

>I'm not condemning you, God is. I'm just letting you know He's condemning you.

>Oh really. Saying "you're going to hell" and "you're a sinner" is NOT condemnation? You sir are a fucking retard.

>Condemnation? So what. Much worse, what this Midget asshat is doing is behaving "condescendingly".
She thinks you are below or beneath her. That you are less of a person because you are going to hell, and how dare you for not believing in the mindless shit that clutters up her thoughts and slowly wastes her life away in some weird sort of slow-motion self-imposed slavery.
Oh you poor pitiful sinner. Such a lowly state! - hahahaha.
Just tell her, "Satan doesn't punish people for enjoying their lives, he REWARDS them in heaven!

>That's God telling me to tell you that you're damned. Don't hate the messenger. But yeah, you're going to Hell, and I tried to help you. Yet you deny help and deny God, therefore Hell is your final resting place. It must suck to live the life of a sinner knowing that when you die you're going to suffer for all eternity, lol

>People who believe in God and going to Heaven ARE better than others, it's just a fact. The truth is painful for people to hear though, so I'm not surprised there's so much hostility directed towards me. If you even tried to turn some of that hostility into worshiping God you might be saved, but today's generation thinks its COOL to go to Hell. Oh well, you'll regret it when you get there. It just means more room in Heaven for me

>@Midget Hey, nice of you to butt-in on our conversation!
You say "It's a fact." - I think you need to look up the definition of that word again.
What is YOUR definition of the word "fact?"

>Look it up yourself. I'm not going to hold your hand and tell you what it is if you don't know already. But the meaning of the word "fact" doesn't change just because you don't like what it connotates. And the facts are God worshippers are better than atheist scum and going to Heaven.

>First off, how the fuck is calling me a sinner and saying I'm going to hell helping me? Second, if believers really are better than non believers, then a fucking child rapist who believes in God is better than an atheist that has selflessly served others all of their lives? If that's truly what you fucking Christians believe, then I'm glad I'm no longer Christian because I wouldn't want to be associated with such a fucked up belief system.

>It's helping you by letting you know you're going down a path of sin and the hard truth is always best. And yes, a child rapist who believes in God is better than an atheist, as long as the rapist asks for forgiveness (unlike the dirty atheist who denies God altogether). Even if the rapist didn't ask for forgiveness they're better than atheists, because denying God is worse than rape on every level. So, sinner, are you going to repent?

aREALgod · March 02, 2015, 04:37:43 PM

Quote from: LC on March 02, 2015, 04:23:50 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:29:54 PM
Quote from: SexyBarracuda on March 02, 2015, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol
you're telling them god made them retarded lol

You should see this comment chain, it's too good. I don't know how they haven't picked up on my trolling yet, this is too easy.

Bruh

It's youtube.

LC pls

Don't downplay my youtube fun

big sponge · March 02, 2015, 04:49:42 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 04:37:43 PM

Quote from: LC on March 02, 2015, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:29:54 PM
Quote from: SexyBarracuda on March 02, 2015, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol
you're telling them god made them retarded lol

You should see this comment chain, it's too good. I don't know how they haven't picked up on my trolling yet, this is too easy.

Bruh

It's youtube.

LC pls

Don't downplay my youtube fun

These are the people who gave Pewdiepie 240k likes on facebook because he said he had just drank some milk.

The Lord Slide Rule · March 02, 2015, 04:50:48 PM

Quote from: LC on March 02, 2015, 04:49:42 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 04:37:43 PM
Quote from: LC on March 02, 2015, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:29:54 PM
Quote from: SexyBarracuda on March 02, 2015, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol
you're telling them god made them retarded lol

You should see this comment chain, it's too good. I don't know how they haven't picked up on my trolling yet, this is too easy.

Bruh

It's youtube.

LC pls

Don't downplay my youtube fun

These are the people who gave Pewdiepie 240k likes on facebook because he said he had just drank some milk.

just because they're retarded doesn't mean we can't laugh

Mordo · March 02, 2015, 05:02:31 PM

>trying to find logic in a 2000 year old desert tome written by tribal scumfucks

c'mon max

Luciana · March 02, 2015, 05:44:28 PM

Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:29:54 PM

Quote from: SexyBarracuda on March 02, 2015, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: aTALLmidget on March 02, 2015, 03:24:25 PM
This feels oddly similar to a youtube comment chain I'm currently trolling in. Apparently atheists get upset when you tell them God made them wrong just to send them to Hell lol
you're telling them god made them retarded lol

You should see this comment chain, it's too good. I don't know how they haven't picked up on my trolling yet, this is too easy.

Link please

I gotta remember this for the future.

Edit: Nvm I see it

R o c k e t · March 02, 2015, 05:46:07 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM

God, for whatever reason, decided to create things that were sinful.

At the time of Creation, humans were not sinful. They were perfect, undefiled. And God didn't create sin itself. Sin's creation came when Lucifer rebelled against God out of jealousy. That desire to be above God, was where sin came into the picture. That desire.

Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin. That's why humanity is now sinful by nature: because the very first 2 people sinned, and sin stains deep.

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM

However, we must still seek forgiveness for ours sins.

...why? If Jesus' death was to absolve us of our sins, why must we still seek forgiveness?

Jesus didn't take humanities' sins and erase them. What He actually did, was make a way, open a door.
Salvation is a gift yes, but it's also a choice on your part. You are not forced to make Christ your savior, you are not forced to live in Fellowship with Him.

Jesus gave us the choice of eternal life. And even afterward, we must seek forgiveness daily. Seek renewing. Because we sin daily, we mess up our clean slate over and over, but over and over Christ offers that endless forgiveness.

The Lord Slide Rule · March 02, 2015, 05:49:49 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 05:46:07 PM

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM
God, for whatever reason, decided to create things that were sinful.

At the time of Creation, humans were not sinful. They were perfect, undefiled. And God didn't create sin itself. Sin's creation came when Lucifer rebelled against God out of jealousy. That desire to be above God, was where sin came into the picture. That desire.

Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin. That's why humanity is now sinful by nature: because the very first 2 people sinned, and sin stains deep.

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM

However, we must still seek forgiveness for ours sins.

...why? If Jesus' death was to absolve us of our sins, why must we still seek forgiveness?

Jesus didn't take humanities' sins and erase them. What He actually did, was make a way, open a door.

This sounds like God is playing by someone else's rules, like he had to meet a prerequisite before he could get us allowed back in.

Just what it sounds like.

More Than Mortal · March 02, 2015, 05:51:31 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 05:46:07 PM

Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin.

That isn't perfect, then.

Quote

Before the Cross, we didn't have a chance at Salvation.

So all of the humans 188,000 years before the life of Christ are in Hell?

Fuck, what about the archaic humans like Homo sapiens idaltu and the Neanderthals, where are they?

R o c k e t · March 02, 2015, 05:52:33 PM

Quote from: SexyBarracuda on March 02, 2015, 05:49:49 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM
God, for whatever reason, decided to create things that were sinful.

At the time of Creation, humans were not sinful. They were perfect, undefiled. And God didn't create sin itself. Sin's creation came when Lucifer rebelled against God out of jealousy. That desire to be above God, was where sin came into the picture. That desire.

Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin. That's why humanity is now sinful by nature: because the very first 2 people sinned, and sin stains deep.

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM

However, we must still seek forgiveness for ours sins.

...why? If Jesus' death was to absolve us of our sins, why must we still seek forgiveness?

Jesus didn't take humanities' sins and erase them. What He actually did, was make a way, open a door.

This sounds like God is playing by someone else's rules, like he had to meet a prerequisite before he could get us allowed back in.

Just what it sounds like.

Well yeah, sin is separation from God.

God the Father, is the righteous god who doesn't tolerate sin. Before Christ, Israel had an annual "sin offering" made to seek forgiveness of their nation's sins. They had to sacrifice the best of the lambs, stuff like that.

Christ the son, was the sacrificial offering for humanities' sins, the "Lamb of God". He made it to where that old practice was null and void. One sacrifice, one offering, for all eternity.

R o c k e t · March 02, 2015, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 02, 2015, 05:51:31 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin.
That isn't perfect, then.

Quote
Before the Cross, we didn't have a chance at Salvation.
So all of the humans 188,000 years before the life of Christ are in Hell?

Fuck, what about the archaic humans like Homo sapiens idaltu and the Neanderthals, where are they?

Actually, I made a mistake there.

People back then did have a chance at Salvation, like in Old Testament times. Basically, as my comment to Barracuda stated, Israel would give an annual "sin offering".

So those who lived righteous lives, like Noah and Moses, they aren't in Hell. They went to a place called "Abraham's bosom". It wasn't Heaven, but it wasn't Hell either. Nor was it Purgatory.

So the righteous weren't condemned, but Salvation wasn't as acquirable as it is through Christ.

More Than Mortal · March 02, 2015, 06:00:08 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 05:55:56 PM

Israel would give an annual "sin offering".

Now why does that sound like animal sacrifice?

Quote

but Salvation wasn't as acquirable as it is through Christ.

That still doesn't seem very just. Well, neither does the idea of original sin but there you go.

challengerX · March 02, 2015, 06:05:33 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

Mat Cauthon · March 02, 2015, 06:09:39 PM

I don't understand how God made everything, except he didn't if Sin exists.
That means that Satan can create things independantly, which means God didn't create everything and is no longer infallible.
And if he didn't see Satan creating things in his magical foresight, then he doesn't have omniscience
And omniscience is pretty much his main shtick.

"God sees everything etc etc"

EDIT: Used omnipotence when I should've said omniscience.

R o c k e t · March 02, 2015, 06:11:43 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 02, 2015, 06:00:08 PM

Now why does that sound like animal sacrifice?

Because it was.

More Than Mortal · March 02, 2015, 06:16:44 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 06:11:43 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 02, 2015, 06:00:08 PM
Now why does that sound like animal sacrifice?

Because it was.

Now what the hell does Yahweh want with dead animals?

R o c k e t · March 02, 2015, 06:21:18 PM

Quote from: challengerX on March 02, 2015, 06:05:33 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM
God, for whatever reason, decided to create things that were sinful.

At the time of Creation, humans were not sinful. They were perfect, undefiled. And God didn't create sin itself. Sin's creation came when Lucifer rebelled against God out of jealousy. That desire to be above God, was where sin came into the picture. That desire.

Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin. That's why humanity is now sinful by nature: because the very first 2 people sinned, and sin stains deep.

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM

However, we must still seek forgiveness for ours sins.

...why? If Jesus' death was to absolve us of our sins, why must we still seek forgiveness?

Jesus didn't take humanities' sins and erase them. What He actually did, was make a way, open a door.
Salvation is a gift yes, but it's also a choice on your part. You are not forced to make Christ your savior, you are not forced to live in Fellowship with Him.

Jesus gave us the choice of eternal life. And even afterward, we must seek forgiveness daily. Seek renewing. Because we sin daily, we mess up our clean slate over and over, but over and over Christ offers that endless forgiveness.
How do you believe in this bullshit dude? I mean damn, say it out loud and listen to what you're saying, then read some factual stuff about our origins and realize were just advanced animals.

Let me just summarize very easily:

sin = separation from God

If humanity is sinful, it is separated

Christ = redemption from sin

Through Christ, there is no more separation from God. He opens that pathway up for any who choose it.

If you weren't raised in the Church and never really were around it, I could see why it sounds odd to some degree.
But it makes sense if you explain it in a simplistic fashion.

challengerX · March 02, 2015, 06:26:23 PM

This user has been blacklisted from posting on the forums. Until the blacklist is lifted, all posts made by this user have been hidden and require a Sep7agon^® SecondClass Premium Membership to view.

R o c k e t · March 02, 2015, 06:27:57 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 02, 2015, 06:16:44 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 06:11:43 PM
Quote from: Meta Cognition on March 02, 2015, 06:00:08 PM
Now why does that sound like animal sacrifice?

Because it was.
Now what the hell does Yahweh want with dead animals?

It was a way to atone for sins. And shepherds would sacrifice the single best lamb of their livestock. Not the worst, the sick. That was out of gratitude for God giving them livestock at all.

More Than Mortal · March 02, 2015, 06:29:10 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 06:21:18 PM

Quote from: challengerX on March 02, 2015, 06:05:33 PM
Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM
God, for whatever reason, decided to create things that were sinful.

At the time of Creation, humans were not sinful. They were perfect, undefiled. And God didn't create sin itself. Sin's creation came when Lucifer rebelled against God out of jealousy. That desire to be above God, was where sin came into the picture. That desire.

Humanity was perfect, sinless, then they chose to sin. That's why humanity is now sinful by nature: because the very first 2 people sinned, and sin stains deep.

Quote from: Mad Max on March 02, 2015, 02:59:43 PM

However, we must still seek forgiveness for ours sins.

...why? If Jesus' death was to absolve us of our sins, why must we still seek forgiveness?

Jesus didn't take humanities' sins and erase them. What He actually did, was make a way, open a door.
Salvation is a gift yes, but it's also a choice on your part. You are not forced to make Christ your savior, you are not forced to live in Fellowship with Him.

Jesus gave us the choice of eternal life. And even afterward, we must seek forgiveness daily. Seek renewing. Because we sin daily, we mess up our clean slate over and over, but over and over Christ offers that endless forgiveness.
How do you believe in this bullshit dude? I mean damn, say it out loud and listen to what you're saying, then read some factual stuff about our origins and realize were just advanced animals.

Let me just summarize very easily:

sin = separation from God

If humanity is sinful, it is separated

Christ = redemption from sin

Through Christ, there is no more separation from God. He opens that pathway up for any who choose it.

If you weren't raised in the Church and never really were around it, I could see why it sounds odd to some degree.
But it makes sense if you explain it in a simplistic fashion.

That doesn't excuse God from making sin, though.

There's no such thing as a state of inaction, not even for us, let alone an omniscient and omnipotent deity. There's no such thing as not acting.

More Than Mortal · March 02, 2015, 06:30:22 PM

Quote from: Val 'Ketam on March 02, 2015, 06:27:57 PM

It was a way to atone for sins. And shepherds would sacrifice the single best lamb of their livestock. Not the worst, the sick. That was out of gratitude for God giving them livestock at all.

So God, the guy you pray to, thinks its reasonable to have stone age shepherds slaughter their most valuable economic in a show of devotion despite the fact that he--being omniscient--could deduce that anyway if he wanted to?