No compatibilist middle-ground either.

OT: I find it exceedingly difficult to take free will seriously as a metaphysical idea. I can't envisage any way in which it is correct.

Definitions:
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded by certain prevailing factors.

Libertarianism is one of the main philosophical positions related to the problems of free will and determinism, which are part of the larger domain of metaphysics. In particular, libertarianism, which is an incompatibilist position, argues that free will is logically incompatible with a deterministic universe and that agents have free will, and that, therefore, determinism is false.

Hard determinism (or metaphysical determinism) is a view on free will which holds that determinism is true, and that it is incompatible with free will, and, therefore, that free will does not exist.

If you're an atheist, there's determinism.

If you're not an atheist, you're, you know. Wrong.

Irrelevant.

Oop, thanks for moving it Rocket.

Anytime m80

but if ur datamineist den how ken moralty b reel

Quantum indeterminance is a thing. The building blocks of reality follow an uncertain, stochastic, probability distribution and cannot be described deterministically. The basis of our memories and reactions to stimuli are electrons (energy) flowing through our nervous system; these are the very same particles that carry an inherent uncertainty. Maybe this uncertainty leads to a Schrodinger's-cat-type situation whenever a decision is needed, and some mechanism allows us to override data and conditions that would otherwise lead to a predetermined outcome.

I dunno. Thats a super interesting line of discussion, to me. Too often these conversations are wrought with free will being relegated to the unscientific or the religious, when the reality is that the idea of a purely deterministic universe is outdated as far as hundred years since the first inklings of errors in quantum mechanics.

Quote from: challengerX on December 26, 2014, 05:31:46 PM

How do you mean? Like I wouldn't kill myself (theoretically) because of certain factors?

If free will is true, you could commit suicide of your own choice.

If determinism is true, your suicide would have been already decided before you even thought of the act.

What's even more interesting is that if the universe were deterministic, your suicide would have been decided at the moment the universe came into existence. And with sensitive enough means of measurement, one could examine your suicide to understand literally every piece of information in existence.

Quote from: Auld Lang Turkey on December 27, 2014, 12:46:45 AM

Quote from: D4C on December 27, 2014, 12:37:24 AM

Quote from: challengerX on December 26, 2014, 05:31:46 PM

How do you mean? Like I wouldn't kill myself (theoretically) because of certain factors?

If free will is true, you could commit suicide of your own choice.

If determinism is true, your suicide would have been already decided before you even thought of the act.

What's even more interesting is that if the universe were deterministic, your suicide would have been decided at the moment the universe came into existence. And with sensitive enough means of measurement, one could examine your suicide to understand literally every piece of information in existence.

Yup. While I believe space is too chaotic for determinism to exist except possibly to an extent on a large scale, I prefer the concept of determinism. It may sound weak-willed, but the concept of every action you make already being written in history (past and present) makes it a lot easier to not overly dwell on mistakes.

Bet it sucked for Hitler to be the one asshole stuck with exterminating a shitload of ethnic people.

Quote from: Verbatim on December 26, 2014, 04:44:19 PM

If you're an atheist, there's determinism.

If you're not an atheist, you're, you know. Wrong.

What about "God's plan"? Wouldn't that imply that events are set in stone to some extent

Well, sure, if one believes in that sort of thing. By "wrong," I'm referring to religion as a sort of catch-22: If you believe you have free will and are religious, you're wrong. If you believe in determinism and are religious... I mean, you're right about determinism, but the religious angle taints it, so it's still wrong. (If you don't know how to divide polynomials, but you somehow got the correct answer anyway... you still don't know how to divide polynomials. So, I mean, what good does that do you?)

And in my experience, most people who claim to be religious also seem to think that their god does indeed give them free will (even though he apparently has a "plan"--yep, Christianity is riddled with contradictions. Who knew?)

So yeah, either way, everyone's gonna have their own interpretations of their religion--
but it doesn't matter, because religion is bullshit.

But that is a good point to bring up.

Quantum indeterminance is a thing. The building blocks of reality follow an uncertain, stochastic, probability distribution and cannot be described deterministically. The basis of our memories and reactions to stimuli are electrons (energy) flowing through our nervous system; these are the very same particles that carry an inherent uncertainty. Maybe this uncertainty leads to a Schrodinger's-cat-type situation whenever a decision is needed, and some mechanism allows us to override data and conditions that would otherwise lead to a predetermined outcome.

I dunno. Thats a super interesting line of discussion, to me. Too often these conversations are wrought with free will being relegated to the unscientific or the religious, when the reality is that the idea of a purely deterministic universe is outdated as far as hundred years since the first inklings of errors in quantum mechanics.

If that were true you've still relegated free will to the unscientific, and entered the realm of incompatibilist indeterminism.

You obviously understand it better than I do, but I'm sceptical of how much this fundamental uncertainty can impact our choices. Determinism isn't about fatalism, merely the idea that you can't escape your own conditions, you aren't the proximate author of your own thoughts and that every decision you make is necessarily a part of this deterministic stream.

I doubt inherent probability at the quantum level can nullify any of these.

Quote from: D4C on December 27, 2014, 12:34:27 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 26, 2014, 04:44:19 PM

If you're an atheist, there's determinism.

If you're not an atheist, you're, you know. Wrong.

What about "God's plan"? Wouldn't that imply that events are set in stone to some extent

Well, sure, if one believes in that sort of thing. By "wrong," I'm referring to religion as a sort of catch-22: If you believe you have free will and are religious, you're wrong. If you believe in determinism and are religious... I mean, you're right about determinism, but the religious angle taints it, so it's still wrong. (If you don't know how to divide polynomials, but you somehow got the correct answer anyway... you still don't know how to divide polynomials. So, I mean, what good does that do you?)

And in my experience, most people who claim to be religious also seem to think that their god does indeed give them free will (even though he apparently has a "plan"--yep, Christianity is riddled with contradictions. Who knew?)

So yeah, either way, everyone's gonna have their own interpretations of their religion--
but it doesn't matter, because religion is bullshit.

But that is a good point to bring up.

The free will bit is actually a big part of genesis with the whole tree of knowledge and such. If anything, God would have planned a deterministic world that was soiled by Samael's interference and Lilith's act of partaking the forbidden fruit.

In essence, free will should be an "unholy" concept and any Jew, Christian, or Muslim should submit to determinism.