Anti-theists are as bad as evangelical Christians

MyNameIsCharlie · August 26, 2014, 02:02:51 PM

Hitler and Stalin were Hitlerists and Stalinists. They weren't defined by being tied to any worship or anti-worship of anything but themselves.

You guys like to through them out as either why religion, or atheism is bad. In reality its neither. They wanted to be gods in their own time. They often used either religious or atheistic rhetoric to further their goal, but make no mistake, they punished any who didn't believe in them personally.

So, please, do us all a favor and stop erroneously using them in this argument.

Kinder Graham · August 26, 2014, 02:11:09 PM

Quote from: Weed Commando on August 26, 2014, 12:00:34 PM

*yawns*

So...

Lemme get this straight.

You're calling me an uneducated imbecile, yet you couldn't tell that what I said was obviously a rhetorical question. Or is this yet another elaborate ruse of yours?

dat damage control

Reciffo_Smmoc · August 26, 2014, 02:18:44 PM

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More Than Mortal · August 26, 2014, 02:19:06 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 26, 2014, 02:02:51 PM

Hitler and Stalin were Hitlerists and Stalinists. They weren't defined by being tied to any worship or anti-worship of anything but themselves.

You guys like to through them out as either why religion, or atheism is bad. In reality its neither. They wanted to be gods in their own time. They often used either religious or atheistic rhetoric to further their goal, but make no mistake, they punished any who didn't believe in them personally.

So, please, do us all a favor and stop erroneously using them in this argument.

Finally, some reason.

Kinder Graham · August 26, 2014, 02:24:27 PM

Quote from: Weed Commando on August 26, 2014, 02:18:44 PM

dat shit-tier bait. God, like every one of your posts is shit bait.

dat irony

Reciffo_Smmoc · August 26, 2014, 02:32:41 PM

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Dave · August 26, 2014, 05:23:01 PM

Speaking as someone who has at least a vague idea of what he's talking about, let me give you the actual facts about Hitler & Stalin's supposed religious beliefs.

- Hitler's religious views aren't really clear, as even among close friends he tended to be tight-lipped on the subject. While he did at various points of his life criticize organized religion and traditional christian morality, he was wary to attack them in public, as a lot of German right-wingers were christian and pissing them off wasn't in his best interest. That being said, he did often express belief in an "almighty creator" while in public, and was willing to use religion to justify his actions, which might say something about religion as an institution.

tl;dr Hitler's religious beliefs were somewhat ambiguous, but claiming that he was an atheist is just as disingenuous as claiming that he was a christian (hint hint, kinder)

- Stalin, on the other hand, was very open about his atheism, and wasn't shy about persecuting religious people in Russia. This was largely an ideological move, as the official Marxist-Leninist party line was that religion was an opiate and needed to be eliminated in order to produce a truly socialist society, but it's important to remember that the Russian Orthodox Church at the time had a bit of a bad rep among the general public for their support of the former Czarist regime (and as awful as the Soviet Union was, it's important to remember that Czarist Russia was just as bad), so there was a pragmatic element to the religious persecution, in addition to the ideological one.

If you want to learn more, Wikipedia has some pretty good articles on the subject:
hhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

MyNameIsCharlie · August 26, 2014, 05:26:35 PM

Quote from: Dave on August 26, 2014, 05:23:01 PM

Speaking as someone who has at least a vague idea of what he's talking about, let me give you the actual facts about Hitler & Stalin's supposed religious beliefs.

- Hitler's religious views aren't really clear, as even among close friends he tended to be tight-lipped on the subject. While he did at various points of his life criticize organized religion and traditional christian morality, he was wary to attack them in public, as a lot of German right-wingers were christian and pissing them off wasn't in his best interest. That being said, he did often express belief in an "almighty creator" while in public, and was willing to use religion to justify his actions, which might say something about religion as an institution.

tl;dr Hitler's religious beliefs were somewhat ambiguous, but claiming that he was an atheist is just as disingenuous as claiming that he was a christian (hint hint, kinder)

- Stalin, on the other hand, was very open about his atheism, and wasn't shy about persecuting religious people in Russia. This was largely an ideological move, as the official Marxist-Leninist party line was that religion was an opiate and needed to be eliminated in order to produce a truly socialist society. This was partially out of personal prejudice, but it's important to remember that the Russian Orthodox Church at the time had a bit of a bad rep among the general public for their support of the former Czarist regime (and as awful as the Soviet Union was, it's important to remember that Czarist Russia was just as bad), so there was a pragmatic element to the religious persecution, in addition to the ideological one.

If you want to learn more, Wikipedia has some pretty good articles on the subject:
hhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

So...basically what I said, but with more details?

Dave · August 26, 2014, 05:31:40 PM

Quote from: MyNameIsCharlie on August 26, 2014, 05:26:35 PM

So...basically what I said, but with more details?

Mostly, yes.

Saying that Stalin wasn't defined by being tied to anti-worship isn't quite accurate, though, as he clearly was.

MyNameIsCharlie · August 26, 2014, 05:38:50 PM

Quote from: Dave on August 26, 2014, 05:31:40 PM

Mostly, yes.

Saying that Stalin wasn't defined by being tied to anti-worship isn't quite accurate, though, as he clearly was.

You could see it that way. Another is saying that he persecuted anyone who didn't worship him.

After all, he changed the name of a city to his own. He wanted to be a god, not interfere with those who worshiped a god.

Dave · August 26, 2014, 06:29:08 PM

He did certainly encourage a cult of personality, but generally the only people he persecuted were those he perceived as political threats.

Spook · September 05, 2014, 03:22:05 AM

I love people who claim hitler was atheist. My suggestion to you history buffs is to research the lance of Longinus and then ask why Hitler wanted it.

As an "atheist " such religious artefacts would/should have meant nothing to him.

But by all means keep arguing your opinions.

God · September 05, 2014, 04:24:32 PM

Quote from: Kinder_ on August 26, 2014, 11:22:06 AM

Hitler was an atheist though

Historians such as Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree that Hitler was anti-Christian - a view evidenced by sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann contained within Hitler's Table Talk.Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity. Hitler in adulthood became disdainful of Christianity

So you think the only options are to be Christian or Atheist? Hitler was anti-Christian since they threatened his regime, but his other views were far from what you'd expect from an atheist. He was a megalomaniac who believed himself to be Germany's messiah, that the Aryan race was truly superior and that Nazism was the perfect system for ruling humanity. It's the same with communism, while technically athiest it is an ideology with no real scientific backing that still has all the same features anti-thiests hate about religion, only replacing an all-powerful deity with an all-powerful government. Look at North Korea, it's full of 'athiests' who think Kim Jong Un can literally read their minds.

Assassin 11D7 · September 07, 2014, 02:47:38 PM

The internet is making me want to convert to this.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · September 07, 2014, 05:20:29 PM

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More Than Mortal · September 07, 2014, 06:21:29 PM

Quote from: TrussingDoor on September 07, 2014, 05:20:29 PM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on September 07, 2014, 02:47:38 PM

The internet is making me want to convert to this.

Muh special snowflake indecision centrist stance :^)

It's not even that. Apatheism is literally just lazy atheism.

Assassin 11D7 · September 07, 2014, 10:43:50 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 07, 2014, 06:21:29 PM

Quote from: TrussingDoor on September 07, 2014, 05:20:29 PM
Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on September 07, 2014, 02:47:38 PM

The internet is making me want to convert to this.

Muh special snowflake indecision centrist stance :^)
It's not even that. Apatheism is literally just lazy atheism.

No stance = stance

Flawless logic.

ΚΑΤΑΝΑΛΩΤΗΣ · September 07, 2014, 11:40:06 PM

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Mox · September 08, 2014, 07:16:35 AM

Shit,I don't see why people still argue about this stuff. If some Christians didn't always try to shove religion down atheists' throats and vise versa. We wouldn't have a problem. People need to get over it and just live and let live.

More Than Mortal · September 08, 2014, 07:53:48 AM

Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on September 07, 2014, 10:43:50 PM

Quote from: Meta Cognition on September 07, 2014, 06:21:29 PM
Quote from: TrussingDoor on September 07, 2014, 05:20:29 PM
Quote from: Assassin 11D7 on September 07, 2014, 02:47:38 PM

The internet is making me want to convert to this.

Muh special snowflake indecision centrist stance :^)
It's not even that. Apatheism is literally just lazy atheism.
No stance = stance

Flawless logic.

Are you an idiot?

That's what atheism is, the lack of a stance. It's a negative belief. Anybody who doesn't actively believe in the existence of a deity is an atheist, no matter how they want to phrase it.