Active shooting in California

Winy · December 02, 2015, 05:02:27 PM

Quote from: Christmas dinner = Murder on December 02, 2015, 04:59:56 PM

Quote from: Winy on December 02, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
ISIS wants glory, and they want recognition; I'll go out on a limb here and draw parallels to what allows for fucked up kids to believe that shooting up a school is how they can remedy their lack of identity and depression. Take away the fear, take away their legitimacy, and the group will die out.
This is a monumentally wrong understanding of the motivations of ISIS.

This is a monumentally wrong misunderstanding of the point of that comparison. It's not just about motivation. It's about appeal. What makes terrorism be seen as a viable solution to the problem? Because then you get attention, glory, and can instill fear. The motivation of ISIS is to establish the caliphate. The means through which they seek to accomplish this goal is loosely comparable to psychological motivations behind other mass killings. And these methods contribute to attaining the goal of creating a Caliphate.

Thun · December 02, 2015, 05:06:52 PM

Winy getting BTFO

DAS B00T x2 · December 02, 2015, 05:07:19 PM

Conventional warfare is inefficient at combating insurgency and plainclothes rebels or guerrilla fighters, as logic would dictate. These are not conventional enemies and operate within your own or your allies borders.

The Caliphate has its own borders. It has its own standing army. It has its own supply lines and convoys that travel beyond it's held territory. It is not an insurgency, it is a rogue state.

Winy · December 02, 2015, 05:07:26 PM

Quote from: Thunder on December 02, 2015, 05:06:52 PM

Winy getting BTFO

Not at all.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · December 02, 2015, 05:11:48 PM

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Winy · December 02, 2015, 05:12:37 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on December 02, 2015, 05:07:19 PM

Conventional warfare is inefficient at combating insurgency and plainclothes rebels or guerrilla fighters, as logic would dictate. These are not conventional enemies and operate within your own or your allies borders.

The Caliphate has its own borders. It has its own standing army. It has its own supply lines and convoys that travel beyond it's held territory. It is not an insurgency, it is a rogue state.

Yes, but the territories that it occupies are still the former property of other governments, and the civilians that live there. On top of that, innocent people are still held within these borders, and the influence of ISIS stretches beyond them. Continuously destroying these regions by bombing them will inevitably lead to civilian casualties, and destruction of civilian property. The issue with this way of solving the problem is that, while you've successfully killed all of your intended targets, you've instilled a sense of rage and frustration into the survivors. People who once were either neutral or sympathetic to the cause of the UN will likely end up despising them as a result of the wasteland they leave behind, and any lingering traces of extremist ideologies (And those will stay for a while) will eventually be used to mold this enmity into a brand new generation of jihadists and insurgents.

DAS B00T x2 · December 02, 2015, 05:12:43 PM

Police are chasing what they believe to be the suspects now. Shots fired from the suspected vehicle.
I think I just heard a medical call.

Roadblocks up, highways shut down, some kind of funneling and entrapment being attempted.

DAS B00T x2 · December 02, 2015, 05:13:46 PM

More shots, medical called.

DAS B00T x2 · December 02, 2015, 05:17:28 PM

I think they've stopped the suspected vehicle

~~Frantic calls for medical~~
Medivac cancelled, suspected gunshot was a ricochet wound and is being taken care of on site

SWAT's rolling a BearCat in.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · December 02, 2015, 05:19:06 PM

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Winy · December 02, 2015, 05:19:15 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on December 02, 2015, 05:11:48 PM

So Winy you would trade not intervening with ISIS directly in hopes of suppressing their spread in return for allowing them to continue their atrocities upon the civilian population they hold?

How can you live with that on your conscience?

I'm not completely against direct intervention. But I am against the usage of bombing methods as the primary way of handling the threat of the Islamic State. In my opinion, people severely underestimate the damage that air raids can do. This is my entire point.

Bombs are a shitty way of dealing with this. The growing anti-Muslim sentiment in the United States and other nations needs to go away, and I believe that the accomplishment of this goal will yield surprisingly better results in mitigating ISIS as a threat than many anticipate. Let refugees in, promote acceptance and understanding, and drop the anti-Islam attitude. This war can't be successfully fought only with weaponry.

And to answer your last question, if I had to save fifty people right now, or 200 people in twenty years, I'd save the 200.

DAS B00T x2 · December 02, 2015, 05:19:38 PM

One suspect in vehicle, one suspect outside vehicle, one witness claiming a third man ran off

Turkey · December 02, 2015, 05:19:52 PM

You heard it here folks, if we stop reporting about ISIS they'll just go away.

DAS B00T x2 · December 02, 2015, 05:22:10 PM

Running suspect detained

Winy · December 02, 2015, 05:22:42 PM

Quote from: Christmas dinner = Murder on December 02, 2015, 05:19:52 PM

You heard it here folks, if we stop reporting about ISIS they'll just go away.

That's not what I'm saying, and pretty dissimilar from anything I've said at all.

cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · December 02, 2015, 05:24:06 PM

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Luciana · December 02, 2015, 05:26:06 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on December 02, 2015, 05:22:10 PM

Running suspect detained

Thank you for actually sticking to the topic.

Kernel Kraut · December 02, 2015, 05:27:54 PM

Suspects got BLOW THE FUCK OUT

Winy · December 02, 2015, 05:28:48 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on December 02, 2015, 05:24:06 PM

I concur that's why we need troops on the ground, rather than salting the earth of the people that live there, but you've given indication in this thread that you're against that too.

I really haven't. People have been perpetually misrepresenting my posts since this discussion started. Paying attention to what I've said so far, it's very clear that the majority of my criticisms of "Conventional warfare methodology" is exclusively in reference to bombs. That being said, I would prefer armed conflict be kept to a minimum.

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The 50 are a guarantee the 200 are an assumption. I'd keep that in mind when answering that.

They aren't "An assumption." They're a very well-rounded estimation for the success of unconventional, public tactics for defending against acts of terror, and destroying the fighting force that ISIS is attempting to expand. Once again, I'm going to post a direct quote from an ISIS member:

"We wish to expose the weakness of America’s centralized power by pushing it to abandon the media psychological war and war by proxy until it fights directly." ISIS wants war. Don't give it to them. Giving into rage is what the organization is striving to draw out of the United States public.

Thun · December 02, 2015, 05:29:48 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on December 02, 2015, 05:22:10 PM

Running suspect detained

that could be anyone

everybody run from the cops in Cali

DAS B00T x2 · December 02, 2015, 05:31:06 PM

They're mobilizing a swat team to another location that the caller did not want to say on air.

Implications... unpleasant.

Jono · December 02, 2015, 05:31:21 PM

Quote from: Thunder on December 02, 2015, 05:29:48 PM

Quote from: DAS FOTZEZERSTÖRER on December 02, 2015, 05:22:10 PM
Running suspect detained
that could be anyone

everybody run from the cops in Cali

Not me

challengerX · December 02, 2015, 05:33:56 PM

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cxfhvxgkcf-56:7 · December 02, 2015, 05:34:44 PM

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gats · December 02, 2015, 05:35:26 PM

Wahahahahabism: A fundamentalist middle eastern comedy movement.

Winy · December 02, 2015, 05:41:21 PM

Quote from: SoporificSlash on December 02, 2015, 05:34:44 PM

Quote from: Winy on December 02, 2015, 05:28:48 PM
They aren't "An assumption."
It clearly is unless you've learned to predict the future.

Calling it an "Assumption" trivializes the concept of being able to rather accurately predict what will happen later on. If it helps you sleep at night, call it that. I really don't care. I'm not bothered very much by the fact that I don't have a crystal ball.

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Yeah no shit that's what they want. That's what every single radical group in existence wants, that's what radicalism is. It's still going to spread if we don't directly intervene with ISIS.

Tell me, should we have not intervened with the Nazis?

Irrelevant comparison. Nazism was a political ideology, ISIS operates off of religious extremism. One is much more easy to put down than the other, and neither are particularly similar in the ways by which they function on a psychological level. Plus, the geopolitical situation in Germany was profoundly different than what's going on in the Middle East.

big sponge · December 02, 2015, 05:47:26 PM

female, arabic

big sponge · December 02, 2015, 05:49:46 PM

also try to stay on topic dudes, no confirmation on whether or not these people are linked to ISIL or any other organization at this time

challengerX · December 02, 2015, 05:52:16 PM

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Turkey · December 02, 2015, 05:52:30 PM

Quote from: Winy on December 02, 2015, 05:22:42 PM

Quote from: Christmas dinner = Murder on December 02, 2015, 05:19:52 PM
You heard it here folks, if we stop reporting about ISIS they'll just go away.
That's not what I'm saying, and pretty dissimilar from anything I've said at all.

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Even the declaration of war against terrorism, in and of itself, is counterproductive to the goal of stopping it.

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Media coverage, for example, only promotes the idea that ISIS is a legitimate state

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By removing the factors of intimidation and coercion, one can effectively kill the power associated with acts of terror— Ultimately, reactions of the public are what allow for ISIS to thrive.

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If the group is no longer formally recognized, and are seen as foolish or insignificant, then the supposedly glamorous caliphate that they declare will sunk further and further into illegitimacy, losing its appeal to potential recruits.

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ISIS wants glory, and they want recognition; I'll go out on a limb here and draw parallels to what allows for fucked up kids to believe that shooting up a school is how they can remedy their lack of identity and depression. Take away the fear, take away their legitimacy, and the group will die out.

Maybe it's not what you think now, but it's what you've said repeatedly. If we stopped showing ISIS in the media or talking about them on a national scale, they wouldn't give a fuck. In fact, turning a blind eye to them would probably embolden them even more.