Quote from: Mr Psychologist on April 23, 2015, 08:09:01 AM

Because we haven't created a successor race yet, evolution is about achieving greater and greater forms so for the human race - one of the most promising results of evolution so far, you know with sentience and all that - to wipe itself out without at least leaving a positive legacy in the universe is selfish to the other beings that live in it.

And you accuse me of "mental gymnastics"... Jesus Christ. How could it possibly be selfish to run out the human race voluntarily? What's selfish is to impose life for your bizarre (and futile) ideal of "creating the ultimate race". Because we're going to fail.

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Hell just Earth as an example, what kind of species rapes the bejeesus out of the planet and then decides to wipe itself out without cleaning up it's mess.

That's my argument, though. Anti-natalism is the mop that will clean up the final mess on planet Earth. Really, I'm also an efilist--I don't just think humans should go extinct. I think all life should go extinct. I'm not here to tell you how we could do that--I'm just trying to spread the idea and let people know that it's a good idea. If all life goes extinct, it doesn't matter what we leave behind. There's no one left to care.

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I've said for a while now, if humanity can create a race of sentient machines to look after planets in a far better manner than we do then we can all die out and I wouldn't really care. Completing that goal isn't likely to happen anytime soon, so prematurely encouraging extinction is wrong.

It's not likely to happen any time ever.

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Or because they don't want to live anymore. You forgot that really basic part that no one else would have ever missed.

Which falls under mental illness.

According to...?

Whoever it is, they're wrong. And even if they're right, who cares?

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M.

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Why? Why must you force people to continue living if they don't want to?

Because it is immoral to let someone die when they can be treated, forcing people to continue living is exactly what A&E do for attempted suicides or what sectioning does to the severely disturbed who frequently make attempts on their own life. A treatable mental illness causes them to wish to die/kill themselves, so just standing idly by and letting people jump/overdose/slice down the road rather than getting them the therapy that treats that mindset is wrong.

Why? You just restated your shitty point. If someone wants to die, why is it wrong to let them die? Because you think living is so much cooler? Why should they give a fuck about what you think?

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Someone who has a mental illness is not in the right state of mind to be making decisions over their own mortality,

Who.

Cares.

Why does that matter.

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The illness can be treated and then the wish to die has disappeared/receded, mental illness is not a terminal disease and people should not be dying because of it.

You can make these bogus arguments (you're pretending as though the only people who want to die are ones who are already severely ill, which is false), but it has nothing to do with our rights. Regardless of these shitty emotional appeals you're making, you should still have the right to kill yourself.

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The families of the patient care, their friends and wider social circles. Their doctors and shrinks care too, letting someone kill themselves because you didn't give them the necessary treatment is one of the worst possible failings of a medical professional.

Unless they want to die. In which case, it's completely justified. If someone is suffering, and they don't want to live anymore, end it.

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Thank you.

And you wonder why I lash out and get fucking pissed off at you.

What you're saying is evil.

E-V-I-L

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Wrong, it does matter. It's the responsibility of MHC workers to make sure that people afflicted with something like depression don't simply kill themselves

Then they have an evil responsibility.

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Which in my book covers 99.99% of people with that sort of mindset, leaving room for the abnormals as always but people who want to die are either mentally ill or are trying to escape something like shame/restoring their honour etc. Someone who wishes they were never born and genuinely wants to die is mentally ill.

1. No they're not.
2. Even if they are, it doesn't matter. It will never matter.

People who want to die should have the right to die. It makes perfect sense that someone might be dissatisfied with the fact that they were forced into life by two fucktards.

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At times, sure. I'm not a perfect linguistic genius, but I'd say it's better than spamming cUNT whenever you run into an argument.

Good thing I haven't done that. Which leaves you being incredibly inarticulate.

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lol

Nice refutation.

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So you were actually butthurt over this? Nice.

Glad to know my reports of your posts have been completely justified. Piece of shit.

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I wonder why that is then, because I've seen plenty of people present sound arguments to you in the past and they all got the same dismissals.

Maybe because they're FUCKING WRONG.

If someone is wrong, you argue with them. I'm not going to fucking give up my philosophy just because a group of dumbfucks think I'm wrong. No, I think you're wrong, and I don't think I've received a single sound argument yet. Not a single person has been able to adequately answer the question, "why should the human race continue"?

And you had one of the shittiest answers yet.

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And with people who live in the real world, existential angst tends to rank pretty low on their list of priorities. I'm pretty sure people can afford to be wrong over that, because when it's compared to things like securing a future for their families or their own success in life people will not really give a shit about whether their own existence is morally justifiable or if having children and grandchildren is an affront to one particular type of philosophy.

Which makes them all fucktards. Yes, it does.

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Zero hypocrisy.

lol, sure.

ZERO hypocrisy.

You insulted me first. You should be banned.

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why highlight the disabled to make your point?

BECAUSE ONE IN FIVE PEOPLE HAS SOME TYPE OF DEBILITY.

THAT'S REALITY.

I'm obviously going to bring up examples of reality that might OFFEND you, because they're REALITY. This should DETER you from ever wanting to have children, because you shouldn't want to impose CANCER, or anything else that's going to make them either an intense sufferer, or a complete loser for the rest of their lives. You SHOULDN'T want to impose that on ANYBODY.

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Justifying your ideology by using the infirm as a reason not to 'risk' having children is just downright scummy.

I really don't fucking see how. Kindly demonstrate how illustrating a concept of reality is "scummy".

PEOPLE ARE BORN WITH CRIPPLING DISEASES.

Would you appreciate being born with a crippling fucking disease? I don't fucking think so.
Let me take all of your money and gamble it away, and see how you like it.

tl;dr, don't try and raise a family because you have a small risk of giving your children diseases.

Well shit, thank God we have treatments so they can continue living happy lives if such a thing were to occur.

tl;dr, don't try and raise a family because you have a small risk of giving your children diseases.

1 in 5.

That is COLOSSAL.

And it's not JUST diseases, asshole. Everything about life is pretty much just shit.

Well shit, thank God we have treatments so they can continue living happy lives if such a thing were to occur.

Good luck curing cancer, AIDS, diabetes, elephantiasis, harlequin ichthyosis, etc. etc. etc.

And again, that's not even touching upon things that'll ensure your kid's life will suck that aren't diseases. Most children are born in fucking poverty. Some are born homosexual in a culture that fucking HATES homosexuals. The horror just doesn't fucking end at diseases. It just happens to be a very poginant example.

Breaking this into parts for now since mobile typing sucks.

Quote from: Voro 'Cinotai on April 28, 2015, 10:11:53 AM

tl;dr, don't try and raise a family because you have a small risk of giving your children diseases.

1.  1 in 5.

That is COLOSSAL.

2.  And it's not JUST diseases, asshole. Everything about life is pretty much just shit.

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Well shit, thank God we have treatments so they can continue living happy lives if such a thing were to occur.

3.  Good luck curing cancer, AIDS, diabetes, elephantiasis, harlequin ichthyosis, etc. etc. etc.

4.  And again, that's not even touching upon things that'll ensure your kid's life will suck that aren't diseases. Most children are born in fucking poverty.

5.  Some are born homosexual in a culture that fucking HATES homosexuals. The horror just doesn't fucking end at diseases. It just happens to be a very poginant example.

1.  Stats pls

2.  Glad to see my reports against you are justified.

3.  Well with science and medicine/technology advancing, we may yet get to see some form of cute for cancer, but for now we do have the technology and hemp oils to help relieve the battles with cancer.

As for diabetes, yes it sucks.  I am at risk of it because there's a family history of it, but I'm going through life fine.  My biological mom has diabetes, but she still goes through life happy and with a smile on her face.  Several classmates I knew have diabetes, but they still remain optimistic.

4.  That's why we have ways for people to try and get themselves out of poverty, if they have the drove to do so:  government assistance (though the people that do nothing but leech off the system should be cut off entirely ), schools that are widely available for children can get the education they need to get jobs that get them out of poverty, etc.

5.  Society is progressing towards being more tolerant of homosexuals, even of they do not agree with how they are.  Yes there are zealous bigots against them, there always will be, but as a whole society's tolerance is increasing compared to, fuck, even 10 years ago.

1.  Stats pls

http://www.thekimfoundation.org/html/about_mental_ill/statistics.html

This is common knowledge, by the way. This shouldn't be news to you.

3.  Well with science and medicine/technology advancing, we may yet get to see some form of cute for cancer, but for now we do have the technology and hemp oils to help relieve the battles with cancer.

Which doesn't justify imposing life on children.

I'm going through life fine.

I don't care. It's not about you. It's about the future generations who will be born as a result of ignorant stupidity. Just because you think you're "going through life fine" (you're probably a 20-something, if that, so you know absolutely nothing about how shitty life can really get), doesn't give you the right to impose it on anybody else.

4.  That's why we have ways for people to try and get themselves out of poverty

They shouldn't be having children if they're in poverty to BEGIN WITH. No fucking shit.

5.  Society is progressing towards being more tolerant of homosexuals

Slowly. Imagine this: There are still racists in America. People who want the South to "rise again". They exist. The KKK is still in formation, as much of a joke as they are.

You can't escape bigotry.

Quote from: Prime Meridia on April 28, 2015, 09:35:26 AM

I'd like to add that wanting to die isn't necessarily tied to mental instability; there are states in the US that allow euthanasia so long as the person is making the decision sound of mind.

How would that sort of thing be judged, anyway? Because, in my opinion, nobody is "sound of mind". What does that even mean, realistically?

Out in the field of EMS, it typically means making sure the patient is alert and oriented by 4 (A/Ox4). This is done by when you see medical staff or medics/EMTs/etc ask a patient their name, where they are, what's going on, and what time/year/date it is. Person, Place, Time, Situation or Event. If the person is not A/Ox4 they are usually considered to have an altered mental status and cannot competently make decisions for themselves, like signing to accept or refuse treatment. I'm sure that it gets a little more in depth depending on the circumstances and for medical professionals higher up the food chain.

Was going to wait for your answer on things Verb. But stuff doesn't stick round in my head for long. So here we go.

I asked you what your particular purpose was, your goals and your reasons, because any answer would likely be self centered and therefore selfish or tingeing on it. I want to do this, I want to do that, I want friends etc etc. Saying I want to have kids, or I don't want to have kids, is selfish because it's only ever a decision made in the interest of the person making it.

We, as a species are selfish to many, many varying shades of degrees.

Now, what's really important. This is not an insult. Because it includes me, you, and psych. Regarding our philosophies. They're just that. Philospohies. I belief, an idea. However. All three of ours, while being possiblities, while having the potential to happen, have no bearing in reality because of their great distance.

Rough math, assuming most members of this site are in their 20's, the majority of us have 60 years left in us if we're going by the male average of 80 years. Even though in 60 years time, things will have changed, those philosphies, those quaint daydreams, will not be in reach.

As such, they don't have any grounding in reality. Which therefore means your particular philsophy, in particular Verb, is self defeatist and pointless. And potentially, harmful to yourself. I'm sure, you can't argue against the merits of having a partner with you. Pleasant company.

Which would most likely be a woman who is one of two things. Infertile, or aesexual. Reproductive drives in women are rather powerful, and, rightly so when they're around someone they care about and hold affection for. Even somebody who can't have kids might consider adopting.

So, that leaves you the potential for trouble. Your philosphy will shunt you up a brick wall and you'll either move or you won't. Not moving, will result in fights. Breakups. Cheerful things.

And second. Let's say the cards land in your favor and you meet somebody who jumps on board with your philosophy. Then what? You two live your lives, then you keel over. Your philosphy lacks something Verb. The ability to create paradigms.

How has any belief grown powerful over the centuries? The bible, for instance. Paradigms, installed into children. The best way to expand any belief into any real sense of power or magnitude, is through kids. Raising them by an example, installing a paradigm into them when they're young makes said belief almost unshakable and unbreakable.

So, as such, your belief, Verb, is what I'll just say is a couch potato philosphy. You can't do anything with it. It can't raise kids with raised values to carry on a silent legacy perpetrated by family lines. It can't convince everybody in the world, unless it turned to brute force, which would render it oppressive. It can't, and will never leave any outstanding mark on the world.

And in 60 years time, you'll be dead. I asked you what your particular drive was, because I was curious if you took to talking about your philosophy with others. If it has any semblence of control over your life, it's a sham.

It's a comformity that you adhere to, to make sense of the world but it is nothing more than an idle conversation generator.

And I'll go ahead here for you. My particular belief, is an idle daydream as well. I will never live to see such a thing and at most, I'll live long enough to see the first commercial prosthetics get launched to the public and watch Baltimore Chimp Out 2050 with cyborg people killing each other.

Letting your philosphy run your life, leads to mistakes. Believing you are correct to 100% is a failure and can lead to so many problems.

I'm talking to you, mainly because of my own musings over the past days. I'm aware of the real reality around me. We live only in the present moment. Putting your cards on the future, and all of them, is a surefire thing to backfire.

And while I don't think you're an active perpetrator of your belief, you don't spend your time and efforts on it, I do think you'll spend your life, trying to do whatever it is that you enjoy, just like a normal person, just like every person.

Which regards your philosophy to the couch potato stance again. Just a unique conversation piece. Don't let it call your shots for you verb.

That applies to me because I take my musings on people and apply it to myself as well. But, I figured, I'd share this thought train here with you since this is the place for it, at this point, and this debate was what sparked my thinking.

Do with that whatever you please. Maybe it's presumptious of me or assertive or even not minding my own business in regards to personal affairs.

In that case you can always tell me to fuck off.

why is this thread still alive

It has quality discussion value and I think the 8 pages of replies is a reflection of that.

Quote from: ////\\\\ on April 29, 2015, 12:34:54 PM

Quote from: Madman Mordo on April 29, 2015, 11:45:36 AM

why is this thread still alive

It has quality discussion value and I think the 8 pages of replies is a reflection of that.

If by discussion value you mean 7 pages of Sandtrap ramblings and Verbatimposting then yeah, quality discussion all the way.

Sandtrap's ramblings haven't constituted a majority of the thread, and Verb's debate with Mr. P has been quality. It's invoked discussion

And second. Let's say the cards land in your favor and you meet somebody who jumps on board with your philosophy. Then what? You two live your lives, then you keel over. Your philosphy lacks something Verb. The ability to create paradigms.

How has any belief grown powerful over the centuries? The bible, for instance. Paradigms, installed into children. The best way to expand any belief into any real sense of power or magnitude, is through kids. Raising them by an example, installing a paradigm into them when they're young makes said belief almost unshakable and unbreakable.

So, as such, your belief, Verb, is what I'll just say is a couch potato philosphy. You can't do anything with it. It can't raise kids with raised values to carry on a silent legacy perpetrated by family lines. It can't convince everybody in the world, unless it turned to brute force, which would render it oppressive. It can't, and will never leave any outstanding mark on the world.

There's always adoption, if I am so inclined one day to raise somebody. There's nothing in anti-natalism that says I can't do that. I don't see the practical difference in teaching a loved one about my philosophy, and teaching a loved one about my philosophy, however. It's these people that will understand me the very most, simply because they're my blood, and if they reject my philosophy on any grounds, it's probably going to be on the grounds that my belief doesn't have any room for God. There's no room for heaven or hell. If my family weren't still duped by the flowers of religion, I'm positive that they'd be closet anti-natalists, at the very least.

It is absolutely abominable that we practice or condone this type of sickening behavior. There is absolutely NO reason for it to happen. Period.

If the mother or child was going to die, or if the mother was raped, then yeah let it happen.

Quote from: BC on April 30, 2015, 12:06:54 AM

Your against creating life?

Jesus Christ this is new levels of edge.

*you're

Well played