"You should absolutely be forced to be vegan."

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?

Everything

big sponge · May 12, 2015, 03:59:17 AM

Vitamin B12

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:00:36 AM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 03:59:17 AM

Vitamin B12

It's readily obtainable through supplements and fortified foods.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything

But nothing you can articulate?

big sponge · May 12, 2015, 04:01:09 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:00:36 AM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 03:59:17 AM
Vitamin B12
It's readily obtainable through supplements and fortified foods.

And is not vegan friendly since it comes from animals.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:02:55 AM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 04:01:09 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:00:36 AM
Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 03:59:17 AM
Vitamin B12
It's readily obtainable through supplements and fortified foods.

And is not vegan friendly since it comes from animals.

Almost all sources of B12 are totally synthetic and not animal-derived -- including those given to animals themselves.

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 04:03:43 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?

The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.

It's laughably sad.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:07:29 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:03:43 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.

It's laughably sad.

But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.

big sponge · May 12, 2015, 04:08:56 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:02:55 AM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 04:01:09 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:00:36 AM
Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 03:59:17 AM
Vitamin B12
It's readily obtainable through supplements and fortified foods.

And is not vegan friendly since it comes from animals.
Almost all sources of B12 are totally synthetic and not animal-derived -- including those given to animals themselves.

Uhh, no. Most B12 comes from animals and the synthetic B12 is made from fermenting cobalt and cyanide.

Oh man, I sure love ingesting a healthy dose of cyanide with my breakfast cereal every morning. It really is the best way to start my day.

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 04:14:40 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:07:29 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:03:43 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.

It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.

There's literally nothing unethical about eating meat.
The way the animals are killed? Sure, but eating them? Nope.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:22:36 AM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 04:08:56 AM

Uhh, no. Most B12 comes from animals

Citation needed?

Quote

Oh man, I sure love ingesting a healthy dose of cyanide with my breakfast cereal every morning. It really is the best way to start my day.

Cyanacobalamin has such a low molecular weight of cyanide that it is perfectly safe. If you hear the word cyanide and automatically think it must be bad, you have fallen victim to irrationality.

http://jacknorrisrd.com/safety-of-cyanide-in-cyanocobalamin/

"In summary, the amount of cyanide in 1,000 micrograms of cyanocobalamin is about .6% of the amount that is thought to be the lower level that causes harm."

And besides, you can take methylcobalamin instead.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:23:35 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:14:40 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:07:29 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:03:43 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.

It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.
There's literally nothing unethical about eating meat.
The way the animals are killed? Sure, but eating them? Nope.

What if eating them supports the unethical ways in which they are killed?

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:23:59 AM

double

Batch · May 12, 2015, 04:31:53 AM

Yeah we eat leaves yay.

Shut up, I'mma eat my fucking steak, this will never work, you know that, live on.

*sips tea*

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 04:34:50 AM

Quote from: Batch on May 12, 2015, 04:31:53 AM

Yeah we eat leaves yay.

Shut up, I'mma eat my fucking steak, this will never work, you know that, live on.

*sips tea*

Is the competition for biggest straw man underway?

big sponge · May 12, 2015, 04:48:27 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:22:36 AM

You never gave any citations for your claims either. Considering B12 is naturally occurring, it's going to be more abundant than any sort of lab produced synthetic supplement. Which is the main point of contention, if you have to use supplements and synthetics to be healthy then veganism is neither a healthy or natural diet.

gats · May 12, 2015, 04:55:27 AM

I see no problem with this.

It's pretty hypocritical to say that you can't force people not to eat animals, yet you're forcing animals to a life of agony.
Both involve using force against sentient beings yet one is okay but the other isn't.

Batch · May 12, 2015, 05:06:56 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:34:50 AM

Quote from: Batch on May 12, 2015, 04:31:53 AM
Yeah we eat leaves yay.

Shut up, I'mma eat my fucking steak, this will never work, you know that, live on.

*sips tea*
Is the competition for biggest straw man underway?

Nicholas Cage already won that, hell won the competition for the longest time wearing a bee suit in the same day.

Mattie G Indahouse · May 12, 2015, 05:10:13 AM

Quote from: Sandtrap on May 11, 2015, 09:51:41 PM

Plants have nervous systems, plants feel pain, plants, even have short term memory.

Mowing my yard will forever change now.

Batch · May 12, 2015, 05:11:37 AM

Quote from: BerzerkCommando on May 12, 2015, 05:10:13 AM

Quote from: Sandtrap on May 11, 2015, 09:51:41 PM
Plants have nervous systems, plants feel pain, plants, even have short term memory.
Mowing my yard will forever change now.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 05:24:51 AM

Quote from: LC on May 12, 2015, 04:48:27 AM

You never gave any citations for your claims either.

My apologies:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

"The vitamin B12 component in B12 supplements and fortified foods is made by bacteria and sourced from bacteria cultures; it is not taken from animal products. However, some companies might put gelatin in their B12 supplements, though this appears to be less and less common. It is easy to find vegan B12 supplements on the Internet or in grocery stores in developed countries."

Quote

Considering B12 is naturally occurring, it's going to be more abundant than any sort of lab produced synthetic supplement. Which is the main point of contention, if you have to use supplements and synthetics to be healthy then veganism is neither a healthy or natural diet.

I'll concede that it's not "natural". However, you would also need to concede that eating meat isn't natural either, considering livestock are selectively bred, vaccinated, given growth hormones, and occasionally B12 injections. You would also need to concede that just about any food you eat that is processed in any way is not natural. Clearly this is a purely arbitrary and meaningless line to draw.

I strongly object that it isn't healthy, though. You seem to be causally linking this to your claim of it being unnatural: if something isn't natural it must be unhealthy. This is obviously problematic because there are plenty of "unnatural" things that are beneficial for us, such as medicine. Unless you are saying that chemotherapy is nothing compared to the powers of lemongrass and cocoa powder, this argument isn't really valid.

All that matters is that we can achieve optimal health with the aid of supplements. If we can't, then it is best to eat a healthy, wholefood diet. But we can. This is not disputable. And supplementing B12 is a cheap, easy, and effective way to do it.

challengerX · May 12, 2015, 07:39:18 AM

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Mega Sceptile · May 12, 2015, 07:51:45 AM

yeah, I'm not giving up red meats, the flavour and seasoning that I can combine for a meal alone are worth it.

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 08:31:04 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:23:35 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:14:40 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:07:29 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:03:43 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.

It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.
There's literally nothing unethical about eating meat.
The way the animals are killed? Sure, but eating them? Nope.
What if eating them supports the unethical ways in which they are killed?

That doesn't make eating them unethical.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 08:55:52 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 08:31:04 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:23:35 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:14:40 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:07:29 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:03:43 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.

It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.
There's literally nothing unethical about eating meat.
The way the animals are killed? Sure, but eating them? Nope.
What if eating them supports the unethical ways in which they are killed?
That doesn't make eating them unethical.

I fail to see how it doesn't. If unethical practices are committed solely because you are paying for them to be committed, then there is huge ethical culpability on your part. You are not merely complicit, you are actively supporting (and demanding) the killing of animals for your consumption. Therefore voicing disapproval for something while at the same time condoning it with your money is intellectually disreputable and your words carry no weight.

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 09:23:07 AM

Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 08:55:52 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 08:31:04 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:23:35 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:14:40 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:07:29 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 04:03:43 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:55:24 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 03:17:22 AM
Quote from: Pendulate on May 12, 2015, 03:15:04 AM
Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 02:28:12 AM
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.

It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.
There's literally nothing unethical about eating meat.
The way the animals are killed? Sure, but eating them? Nope.
What if eating them supports the unethical ways in which they are killed?
That doesn't make eating them unethical.
I fail to see how it doesn't. If unethical practices are committed solely because you are paying for them to be committed, then there is huge ethical culpability on your part. You are not merely complicit, you are actively supporting (and demanding) the killing of animals for your consumption. Therefore voicing disapproval for something while at the same time condoning it with your money is intellectually disreputable and your words carry no weight.

I'm not paying for them to kill the animals the way they do. I'm paying for the end product.
Just because I'm paying for the meat doesn't mean I condone they way they're killed, but it's not like I have a choice over how they're killed. And I'm certainly not going to inconvenience myself over it.

Just because they're killed unethically doesn't make eating the meat unethical.

Pendulate · May 12, 2015, 09:57:13 AM

Quote from: Lemönade on May 12, 2015, 09:23:07 AM

I'm not paying for them to kill the animals the way they do. I'm paying for the end product.

That is highly flawed logic. In a supply/demand market, products -- and, by extension, the production methods -- are either supported or opposed by the consumers speaking with their wallets. If the methods are ethically objectionable, but not illegal, the only way to elicit change is to stop supporting them, and the only way to incentivise this is by ceasing to give them your money. By paying for the end product you are condoning how the product is made, and there is no way to separate the two that has any basis in reality. It would simply be a comforting -- and disjointed -- story you tell yourself.

Quote

it's not like I have a choice over how they're killed.

Except you do, it just isn't as convenient as you would like. The truth is rarely what we wish to hear, especially where ethics are concerned.

Quote

And I'm certainly not going to inconvenience myself over it.

Well, that's the morally condemnable part, isn't it? You cannot proclaim to care about animal welfare on one hand while refusing to do something about it, for the mildest of inconveniences, on the other. it's astonishingly insincere, and should rightly be condemned as unethical.

Girl of Mystery · May 12, 2015, 10:08:27 AM

You're right. I don't care about the animal. Why should I? That doesn't necessarily mean I think the way they're killed is okay though.
Just because eating meat is surrounding by unethical means doesn't make the act of eating meat unethical.
It's like video game pre-ordering. Pre-ordering in itself is fine, it's the way pre-ordering is abused that's the problem.

But whatever. I guess I'll just continue being immoral. No skin off my nose.

Cindy · May 12, 2015, 10:23:04 AM

>Veganism

lol

Deleted · May 12, 2015, 10:27:54 AM

Quote from: Saerveyn on May 12, 2015, 10:23:04 AM

>Veganism

lol