"Gender neutral"

aREALgod · September 13, 2015, 03:50:39 PM

Alright, is there such thing as this "gender neutral" or "non-binary" or "CIS" this and "CIS" that crap? Or is it just some more whiny bullshit perpetuated by tumblrite SJWs?

Is it possibly to be "gender neutral", or are these people just fucking retards?

Turkey · September 13, 2015, 03:53:25 PM

Since gender is a societal concept, then it just means the person doesn't ascribe solely to one sex's norms or the other's. So yeah, 'cisgender' and 'gender binary' are all real things, but solely in a societal context. Oddly enough, they arose out of a desire to eschew traditional societal gender roles, and did so by just making more categories/roles. Kind of silly in my opinion, but it's not really my business.

Verbatim · September 13, 2015, 04:11:22 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 03:53:25 PM

Since gender is a societal concept, then it just means the person doesn't ascribe solely to one sex's norms or the other's. So yeah, 'cisgender' and 'gender binary' are all real things, but solely in a societal context. Oddly enough, they arose out of a desire to eschew traditional societal gender roles, and did so by just making more categories/roles. Kind of silly in my opinion, but it's not really my business.

/thread

More Than Mortal · September 13, 2015, 06:17:31 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 03:53:25 PM

Since gender is a societal concept

Oh my God, die.

Turkey · September 13, 2015, 06:19:07 PM

Quote from: Executioner Sigma on September 13, 2015, 06:17:31 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 03:53:25 PM
Since gender is a societal concept
Oh my God, die.

?

More Than Mortal · September 13, 2015, 06:21:24 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 06:19:07 PM

?

I refuse to accept the definition of gender sociologists peddle; it's much more reasonable to define gender in terms of 'gendered behaviour' relative to certain masculine or feminine traits, which arise--probably mostly--from biology. Redefining gender into something wholly social might be useful in terms of the sex-gender distinction, but it seems to lead most people away from the underlying causes of personality and behavioural differences between masculine and feminine individuals.

And, no, Verbatim, you and I are not discussing this again.

Turkey · September 13, 2015, 06:29:43 PM

Quote from: Executioner Sigma on September 13, 2015, 06:21:24 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 06:19:07 PM
?
I refuse to accept the definition of gender sociologists peddle; it's much more reasonable to define gender in terms of 'gendered behaviour' relative to certain masculine or feminine traits, which arise--probably mostly--from biology.

Of course they arise from biology. Everything everyone does arises from biology. That doesn't make the gender identities we use in western society any less grounded in society. Gender roles are just a social expression of biological traits. Society itself is a biological construct.

Quote

Redefining gender into something wholly social might be useful in terms of the sex-gender distinction, but it seems to lead most people away from the underlying causes of personality and behavioural differences between masculine and feminine individuals.

I don't really think anyone is uncertain about the fact that personality and behavior are caused by biological factors; someone's 'gender identity' is an attempt to reconcile their biological traits with the gender roles that exist in one's society.

More Than Mortal · September 13, 2015, 06:34:01 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 06:29:43 PM

Of course they arise from biology. Everything everyone does arises from biology.

The point is that these gender roles have a solid basis in biology themselves, which seems to be lost on a lot of people. I don't disagree that gender roles are a social phenomenon, or that they can constrain or elevate people in certain circumstances, my problem is when people ignore the underlying causes for these gender roles--as so many seem to do. It's no accident we see gendered behaviour in neonatals, or that more developed and egalitarian countries have greater differences in both personality and professions between men and women.

The problem with defining gender as a social construct is that it tends to lead to the conclusion that no real differences actually exist between men and women when it comes to personality or the interests they will pursue.

Turkey · September 13, 2015, 06:36:15 PM

Quote from: Executioner Sigma on September 13, 2015, 06:34:01 PM

It's no accident we see gendered behaviour in neonatals

Would those even be gendered behaviors? (To be frank I'm not even sure what that phrase means.) If we're just talking about 'girls=pink and ponies', 'guys = blue and cars' sort of thing, it seems like that should be called sex behavior, if its evinced in children unaffected by society.

More Than Mortal · September 13, 2015, 06:40:29 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 06:36:15 PM

it seems like that should be called sex behavior, if its evinced in children unaffected by society.

Ah, see, this is the thing though. We fundamentally disagree on the definition of gender; if you define it as wholly social, then everything biological becomes sexual. Which is the same definition Verbatim uses.

Under this paradigm, my position is that most behaviour stems from sexual--and not social--pressures.

Turkey · September 13, 2015, 06:44:00 PM

Quote from: Executioner Sigma on September 13, 2015, 06:40:29 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 06:36:15 PM
it seems like that should be called sex behavior, if its evinced in children unaffected by society.
Ah, see, this is the thing though. We fundamentally disagree on the definition of gender; if you define it as wholly social, then everything biological becomes sexual. Which is the same definition Verbatim uses.

Under this paradigm, my position is that most behaviour stems from sexual--and not social--pressures.

Oh, yeah I agree with that I'm just using the framework we have available. I was under the impression 'gender as a social construct' implied the understanding that behavior is almost entirely grounded in biology but is expressed in the confines of society through terms like cisgender and binary.

I guess I don't even know what I don't know.

More Than Mortal · September 13, 2015, 06:47:59 PM

Quote from: HurtfulTurkey on September 13, 2015, 06:44:00 PM

Oh, yeah I agree with that I'm just using the framework we have available. I was under the impression 'gender as a social construct' implied the understanding that behavior is almost entirely grounded in biology but is expressed in the confines of society through terms like cisgender and binary.

I guess I don't even know what I don't know.

That would by the most reasonable conclusion, but most social constructionists tend to fall firmly on the nurture side of the nature v. nurture debate.

Winy · September 13, 2015, 07:47:11 PM

The arguments behind the definitions of gender, sexual identity, and the like have become so convoluted and dissonant, that I really don't pay attention to them anymore. To me, people can identify as whatever the hell they want to. Although I think there's a point where we can be carried away with how much of a niche sexuality we classify ourselves as. I remember reading some Reddit post on /r/Relationships where a guy argued that he couldn't find a good partner because he was "Sapiosexual." That is, he was attracted only to intelligence. Which is, obviously, a retarded idea. He was just a bisexual guy who liked smart people.

eggsalad · September 13, 2015, 08:05:00 PM

Cis is just a term that is incredibly useful for trans discussions. You could waste time saying "normal gendered people" or "people who identify with their gender assigned at birth", or you could just say "cisgendered people".

Assassin 11D7 · September 13, 2015, 09:08:34 PM

Quote from: eggsalad on September 13, 2015, 08:05:00 PM

Cis is just a term that is incredibly useful for trans discussions. You could waste time saying "normal gendered people" or "people who identify with their gender assigned at birth", or you could just say "cisgendered people".

Or you could say normies, or regular people.