Minimum wage can't even sustain one person enough to afford rent, car payments, food, other bills, etc. without any form of other financial support i.e. Food stamps, a second job, etc...
Quote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:06:25 PMQuote from: challengerX on September 27, 2015, 02:05:01 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:59:35 PMQuote from: challengerX on September 27, 2015, 01:58:51 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:11:32 PMFirst off, I never denied there was a contemporary social mobility issue.Second, you really think hiking the minimum wage is a viable solution? Where is the reason, where is the evidence? Demonstrate to us why increasing the MW works, don't just whine about the oh-so-poor, oppressed working class. Time and time again astronomically high MW laws have exemplified their ineffectiveness in alleviating poverty, and has instead, created a disemployment due to its damaging effects on small businesses struggling to maintain costs just so they can stay afloat.It's all very nice championing this valiant cause for the poor, but when push comes to shove, implementing actual policies to combat the issue is a very different story. Unless you've got this wonderful magical solution to the problem at hand that doesn't involve bullying businesses into inflating their labour costs, I really don't know what you can bring to the table besides muh poor people need to be paid more."stop bullying the poor business owners""muh small businesses"Your shilling is legendary.So you don't have an argument backed by empirical evidence then, gotcha.This isn't a Harvard debate, it's a forum. Your constant appeal to macroeconomics and raw data statistics has absolutely NOTHING to do with a high cost of living and extremely shitty pay. Frankly, people earning minimum wage shouldn't be taxed at all. Please, explain to me how the status quo is acceptable."evidence doesn't work on a forum lol i'm right once again"Is this what constitutes a rational argument for you?Your so called evidence isn't all that convincing, I'm afraid. How do you explain Spain's extremely high unemployment rate?
Quote from: challengerX on September 27, 2015, 02:05:01 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:59:35 PMQuote from: challengerX on September 27, 2015, 01:58:51 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:11:32 PMFirst off, I never denied there was a contemporary social mobility issue.Second, you really think hiking the minimum wage is a viable solution? Where is the reason, where is the evidence? Demonstrate to us why increasing the MW works, don't just whine about the oh-so-poor, oppressed working class. Time and time again astronomically high MW laws have exemplified their ineffectiveness in alleviating poverty, and has instead, created a disemployment due to its damaging effects on small businesses struggling to maintain costs just so they can stay afloat.It's all very nice championing this valiant cause for the poor, but when push comes to shove, implementing actual policies to combat the issue is a very different story. Unless you've got this wonderful magical solution to the problem at hand that doesn't involve bullying businesses into inflating their labour costs, I really don't know what you can bring to the table besides muh poor people need to be paid more."stop bullying the poor business owners""muh small businesses"Your shilling is legendary.So you don't have an argument backed by empirical evidence then, gotcha.This isn't a Harvard debate, it's a forum. Your constant appeal to macroeconomics and raw data statistics has absolutely NOTHING to do with a high cost of living and extremely shitty pay. Frankly, people earning minimum wage shouldn't be taxed at all. Please, explain to me how the status quo is acceptable."evidence doesn't work on a forum lol i'm right once again"Is this what constitutes a rational argument for you?
Quote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:59:35 PMQuote from: challengerX on September 27, 2015, 01:58:51 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:11:32 PMFirst off, I never denied there was a contemporary social mobility issue.Second, you really think hiking the minimum wage is a viable solution? Where is the reason, where is the evidence? Demonstrate to us why increasing the MW works, don't just whine about the oh-so-poor, oppressed working class. Time and time again astronomically high MW laws have exemplified their ineffectiveness in alleviating poverty, and has instead, created a disemployment due to its damaging effects on small businesses struggling to maintain costs just so they can stay afloat.It's all very nice championing this valiant cause for the poor, but when push comes to shove, implementing actual policies to combat the issue is a very different story. Unless you've got this wonderful magical solution to the problem at hand that doesn't involve bullying businesses into inflating their labour costs, I really don't know what you can bring to the table besides muh poor people need to be paid more."stop bullying the poor business owners""muh small businesses"Your shilling is legendary.So you don't have an argument backed by empirical evidence then, gotcha.This isn't a Harvard debate, it's a forum. Your constant appeal to macroeconomics and raw data statistics has absolutely NOTHING to do with a high cost of living and extremely shitty pay. Frankly, people earning minimum wage shouldn't be taxed at all. Please, explain to me how the status quo is acceptable.
Quote from: challengerX on September 27, 2015, 01:58:51 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:11:32 PMFirst off, I never denied there was a contemporary social mobility issue.Second, you really think hiking the minimum wage is a viable solution? Where is the reason, where is the evidence? Demonstrate to us why increasing the MW works, don't just whine about the oh-so-poor, oppressed working class. Time and time again astronomically high MW laws have exemplified their ineffectiveness in alleviating poverty, and has instead, created a disemployment due to its damaging effects on small businesses struggling to maintain costs just so they can stay afloat.It's all very nice championing this valiant cause for the poor, but when push comes to shove, implementing actual policies to combat the issue is a very different story. Unless you've got this wonderful magical solution to the problem at hand that doesn't involve bullying businesses into inflating their labour costs, I really don't know what you can bring to the table besides muh poor people need to be paid more."stop bullying the poor business owners""muh small businesses"Your shilling is legendary.So you don't have an argument backed by empirical evidence then, gotcha.
Quote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 01:11:32 PMFirst off, I never denied there was a contemporary social mobility issue.Second, you really think hiking the minimum wage is a viable solution? Where is the reason, where is the evidence? Demonstrate to us why increasing the MW works, don't just whine about the oh-so-poor, oppressed working class. Time and time again astronomically high MW laws have exemplified their ineffectiveness in alleviating poverty, and has instead, created a disemployment due to its damaging effects on small businesses struggling to maintain costs just so they can stay afloat.It's all very nice championing this valiant cause for the poor, but when push comes to shove, implementing actual policies to combat the issue is a very different story. Unless you've got this wonderful magical solution to the problem at hand that doesn't involve bullying businesses into inflating their labour costs, I really don't know what you can bring to the table besides muh poor people need to be paid more."stop bullying the poor business owners""muh small businesses"Your shilling is legendary.
First off, I never denied there was a contemporary social mobility issue.Second, you really think hiking the minimum wage is a viable solution? Where is the reason, where is the evidence? Demonstrate to us why increasing the MW works, don't just whine about the oh-so-poor, oppressed working class. Time and time again astronomically high MW laws have exemplified their ineffectiveness in alleviating poverty, and has instead, created a disemployment due to its damaging effects on small businesses struggling to maintain costs just so they can stay afloat.It's all very nice championing this valiant cause for the poor, but when push comes to shove, implementing actual policies to combat the issue is a very different story. Unless you've got this wonderful magical solution to the problem at hand that doesn't involve bullying businesses into inflating their labour costs, I really don't know what you can bring to the table besides muh poor people need to be paid more.
Question to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?
Quote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:15:12 PMQuestion to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?Meta often cites the subsidization of wages as an alternative, but that's all I'm aware of.
Question to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?As Challenger pointed out, the job market in most countries, especially industrialized Western nations, are becoming overcrowded with people earning degrees and searching for higher employment. Those who are working at a place like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or other retail environments are growingly finding themselves stuck there - they may get lucky and get some management position, but nothing with a stable enough income to actually contribute more to the overall economy.
Quote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:15:12 PMQuestion to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?As Challenger pointed out, the job market in most countries, especially industrialized Western nations, are becoming overcrowded with people earning degrees and searching for higher employment. Those who are working at a place like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or other retail environments are growingly finding themselves stuck there - they may get lucky and get some management position, but nothing with a stable enough income to actually contribute more to the overall economy.First of all, over inflating tertiary education is never a good thing. If everyone and their grandma has a bachelor degree, what's the point in getting one? How are employers able to discern who is best for the job?
Quote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:20:05 PMQuote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:15:12 PMQuestion to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?As Challenger pointed out, the job market in most countries, especially industrialized Western nations, are becoming overcrowded with people earning degrees and searching for higher employment. Those who are working at a place like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or other retail environments are growingly finding themselves stuck there - they may get lucky and get some management position, but nothing with a stable enough income to actually contribute more to the overall economy.First of all, over inflating tertiary education is never a good thing. If everyone and their grandma has a bachelor degree, what's the point in getting one? How are employers able to discern who is best for the job?This statement makes it sound like there is always going to be a section of workers that is going to be down on the luck in terms of wages and employment.
Quote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:23:00 PMThis statement makes it sound like there is always going to be a section of workers that is going to be down on the luck in terms of wages and employment.No, it means that not everyone should be getting college degrees because it renders them useless.
This statement makes it sound like there is always going to be a section of workers that is going to be down on the luck in terms of wages and employment.
Quote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:23:00 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:20:05 PMQuote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:15:12 PMQuestion to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?As Challenger pointed out, the job market in most countries, especially industrialized Western nations, are becoming overcrowded with people earning degrees and searching for higher employment. Those who are working at a place like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or other retail environments are growingly finding themselves stuck there - they may get lucky and get some management position, but nothing with a stable enough income to actually contribute more to the overall economy.First of all, over inflating tertiary education is never a good thing. If everyone and their grandma has a bachelor degree, what's the point in getting one? How are employers able to discern who is best for the job?This statement makes it sound like there is always going to be a section of workers that is going to be down on the luck in terms of wages and employment.No, it means that not everyone should be getting college degrees because it renders them useless.
Quote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:24:50 PMQuote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:23:00 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:20:05 PMQuote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:15:12 PMQuestion to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?As Challenger pointed out, the job market in most countries, especially industrialized Western nations, are becoming overcrowded with people earning degrees and searching for higher employment. Those who are working at a place like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or other retail environments are growingly finding themselves stuck there - they may get lucky and get some management position, but nothing with a stable enough income to actually contribute more to the overall economy.First of all, over inflating tertiary education is never a good thing. If everyone and their grandma has a bachelor degree, what's the point in getting one? How are employers able to discern who is best for the job?This statement makes it sound like there is always going to be a section of workers that is going to be down on the luck in terms of wages and employment.No, it means that not everyone should be getting college degrees because it renders them useless.So, a chunk of people who aren't going to get degrees from a university are going to work their lives at some retail establishment of some kind - for low wages that they cannot live on.Tell me again how that fixes the problem?
Quote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:28:16 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:24:50 PMQuote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:23:00 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:20:05 PMQuote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:15:12 PMQuestion to those against raising the minimum wage (Or even those who are for it): What are the other options?As Challenger pointed out, the job market in most countries, especially industrialized Western nations, are becoming overcrowded with people earning degrees and searching for higher employment. Those who are working at a place like Wal-Mart, McDonalds, or other retail environments are growingly finding themselves stuck there - they may get lucky and get some management position, but nothing with a stable enough income to actually contribute more to the overall economy.First of all, over inflating tertiary education is never a good thing. If everyone and their grandma has a bachelor degree, what's the point in getting one? How are employers able to discern who is best for the job?This statement makes it sound like there is always going to be a section of workers that is going to be down on the luck in terms of wages and employment.No, it means that not everyone should be getting college degrees because it renders them useless.So, a chunk of people who aren't going to get degrees from a university are going to work their lives at some retail establishment of some kind - for low wages that they cannot live on.Tell me again how that fixes the problem?You've started the presupposition that anyone who can't get a college degree is automatically deemed worthless. There are plenty of economically viable career paths that don't necessarily require some kind of degree,
which would be less rigid if it weren't for the arbitrary minimum wage laws.
Exactly. Not because they have a high minimum wage. In fact, they have a really low minimum wage.
A small business in Spain is something that makes around 2,000€ profit. They can't afford to hire people.
What exactly is your solution?
If we don't increase wages, or somehow miraculously decrease the cost of living, how are people supposed to live?
The idea that minimum wage jobs are a temporary little thing for some extra money on the side is bullshit.
There are people with degrees stuck working minimum wage.
Sure, there are a lot of people who just can't cut it, but the real problem here is the job market has been flooded. Cheap and affordable higher learning has created a very big problem, and now companies are simply bring in an Indian guy who's more or less qualified on work visas to do the same job for half the pay. This is what's going on just in Silicon Valley.
There are plenty of economically viable career paths
Quote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:36:55 PMThere are plenty of economically viable career pathsName a few.
Carpentry, Masonry, vocational careers. You do realize these are careers that not everyone without a degree (or with one) can do well, correct?
Please stop if you're about to say we need to abolish the minimum wage.
Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 27, 2015, 02:44:08 PMQuote from: A E S T H E T I C S on September 27, 2015, 02:36:55 PMThere are plenty of economically viable career pathsName a few.Gas and oil
Quote from: Kitsunekun on September 27, 2015, 12:56:37 PMMinimum wage can't even sustain one person enough to afford rent, car payments, food, other bills, etc. without any form of other financial support i.e. Food stamps, a second job, etc...So don't live on your own. That's a goddamn luxury, not a right.
WHO DOESNT WANT TO BE RICH
Quote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:41:04 PMCarpentry, Masonry, vocational careers. You do realize these are careers that not everyone without a degree (or with one) can do well, correct?Yes. You also don't need a degree to do them either.
According to the BLS, carpenters earned a median salary of $40,500 in 2013, or $19.47 per hour. During that period, the highest-paid carpenters earned about $73,100, while the lowest-paid earned $25,120.
That's one.
Quote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 27, 2015, 02:47:31 PMThat's one.Gas and oil is an industry not a job.
Quote from: spewky bewgie on September 27, 2015, 02:56:25 PMQuote According to the BLS, carpenters earned a median salary of $40,500 in 2013, or $19.47 per hour. During that period, the highest-paid carpenters earned about $73,100, while the lowest-paid earned $25,120. Split that over twelve months, and you're looking at between $2,100 - $6,091 per month. Now, factor out any rent (For New York city, you're going to look at between 500-1000 a month, even with a roommate - median rent of a 2 bedroom apartment is $1,600), food, which in New York City will cost between 28% and 39% more than the national average, estimating around $200 a month. Of course, you're going to need transportation - expect to shell out a good couple hundred on parking (And don't recommend public transportation - as a carpenter, you're going to need to drive with supplies).Add those base expenses together, and at a minimum, you've got a minimum of $1,000 - this doesn't even factor in costs like insurance, gas costs, any medical expenses, etc.So yeah, you're making 2,000 without a degree as a bottom of the line, base salary. You're also going to be scraping the barrel to cover your expenses, at least in a urban atmosphere.Don't fucking live in one of the most expensive cities in the worldproblem solved
Quote According to the BLS, carpenters earned a median salary of $40,500 in 2013, or $19.47 per hour. During that period, the highest-paid carpenters earned about $73,100, while the lowest-paid earned $25,120. Split that over twelve months, and you're looking at between $2,100 - $6,091 per month. Now, factor out any rent (For New York city, you're going to look at between 500-1000 a month, even with a roommate - median rent of a 2 bedroom apartment is $1,600), food, which in New York City will cost between 28% and 39% more than the national average, estimating around $200 a month. Of course, you're going to need transportation - expect to shell out a good couple hundred on parking (And don't recommend public transportation - as a carpenter, you're going to need to drive with supplies).Add those base expenses together, and at a minimum, you've got a minimum of $1,000 - this doesn't even factor in costs like insurance, gas costs, any medical expenses, etc.So yeah, you're making 2,000 without a degree as a bottom of the line, base salary. You're also going to be scraping the barrel to cover your expenses, at least in a urban atmosphere.
Quote from: Gravedigger on September 27, 2015, 02:58:26 PMQuote from: Fuddy-duddy on September 27, 2015, 02:47:31 PMThat's one.Gas and oil is an industry not a job.One industry. Smartass.
Split that over twelve months, and you're looking at between $2,100 - $6,091 per month.
Now, factor out any rent (For New York city, you're going to look at between 500-1000 a month, even with a roommate - median rent of a 2 bedroom apartment is $1,600), food, which in New York City will cost between 28% and 39% more than the national average
estimating around $200 a month. Of course, you're going to need transportation - expect to shell out a good couple hundred on parking (And don't recommend public transportation - as a carpenter, you're going to need to drive with supplies).
So yeah, you're making 2,000 without a degree as a bottom of the line, base salary. You're also going to be scraping the barrel to cover your expenses, at least in a urban atmosphere.
"Entry level jobs aren't meant to support a family"
