the quote is just really misleadingthis isn't some Barabbas bullshitit's about the fact assumption of innocence is required for an equitable justice system
You could have basically just asked if we agree with innocent until proven guilty and the discussion wouldn't have changed at all.
Quote from: Mordo on April 19, 2016, 11:11:33 AMYou could have basically just asked if we agree with innocent until proven guilty and the discussion wouldn't have changed at all.Except that's not what I'm asking. Innocent until proven guilty stems from the mindset that a free guilty man isn't as bad as an imprisoned innocent man.On a broader spectrum, and this is a hypothetical, but literally freeing 100,000 murderers is less immoral than willingly putting on innocent man in prison.
Quote from: ALIE on April 19, 2016, 11:14:28 AMQuote from: Mordo on April 19, 2016, 11:11:33 AMYou could have basically just asked if we agree with innocent until proven guilty and the discussion wouldn't have changed at all.Except that's not what I'm asking. Innocent until proven guilty stems from the mindset that a free guilty man isn't as bad as an imprisoned innocent man.On a broader spectrum, and this is a hypothetical, but literally freeing 100,000 murderers is less immoral than willingly putting on innocent man in prison.Um no, you have the process in reverse.The actual value between letting many crimes take place again rather than imprisoning one person obviously weighs against the one person.But a just and equitable justice system is paramount to a stable and good society, and an equitable and just system requires presumption of innocence.
i'd rather let one person go jail
Congrats, now those 100 or 100,000 scumbags go on to kill and rape and rob thousands of others! You just contaminated the world with filth, all becuz "HURRR MUH MORALS LOL!"It is far better to send one innocent to prison than to let free the whole fucking prison block. Shit happens boo hoo. If sending one innocent prison away every now and then ensures a safe society, then I will celebrate that man's sacrifice for the greater good of us all.
Quote from: goootsbyX on April 19, 2016, 11:27:35 AMi'd rather let one person go jailwhat a scumbag
Being idealistic accomplishes nothing.
Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 19, 2016, 12:45:49 PMBeing idealistic accomplishes nothing.Quality of a culture is based on their ideas and morals, not accomplishments. That's why even a culture of Tibetan monks is better than one like Greece.
Quote from: ALIE on April 19, 2016, 12:51:32 PMQuote from: Dietrich Six on April 19, 2016, 12:45:49 PMBeing idealistic accomplishes nothing.Quality of a culture is based on their ideas and morals, not accomplishments. That's why even a culture of Tibetan monks is better than one like Greece.We aren't morally bankrupt because we prefer to not have criminals roaming the streets.
Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 19, 2016, 01:05:24 PMQuote from: ALIE on April 19, 2016, 12:51:32 PMQuote from: Dietrich Six on April 19, 2016, 12:45:49 PMBeing idealistic accomplishes nothing.Quality of a culture is based on their ideas and morals, not accomplishments. That's why even a culture of Tibetan monks is better than one like Greece.We aren't morally bankrupt because we prefer to not have criminals roaming the streets.No, you're morally bankrupt because you'd prefer to have innocents locked up.If there's no such thing as a perfect system, and mistakes have to be made, then it's better to make the mistake of letting a guilty man go free than to make the mistake of forcing an innocent go to jail. That's the whole idea of this thread.
for me, it depends on what they're all "guilty" ofif they're all just a bunch of potheads, then okay, no problemif i'm letting a bunch of unabombers out there, well, it's gonna be hard to justify doing that
Quote from: ALIE on April 19, 2016, 01:09:24 PMQuote from: Dietrich Six on April 19, 2016, 01:05:24 PMQuote from: ALIE on April 19, 2016, 12:51:32 PMQuote from: Dietrich Six on April 19, 2016, 12:45:49 PMBeing idealistic accomplishes nothing.Quality of a culture is based on their ideas and morals, not accomplishments. That's why even a culture of Tibetan monks is better than one like Greece.We aren't morally bankrupt because we prefer to not have criminals roaming the streets.No, you're morally bankrupt because you'd prefer to have innocents locked up.If there's no such thing as a perfect system, and mistakes have to be made, then it's better to make the mistake of letting a guilty man go free than to make the mistake of forcing an innocent go to jail. That's the whole idea of this thread.No the whole idea of the thread is one person being wrongly locked up or letting 100s out.It's pretty clear mathematically what should be done. A one to one ratio is an easier sell.
No justice system is perfect, and we have systems of compensation for people who we later discover were wrongfully imprisoned. Imprisoning one innocent man is nowhere near as immoral as letting hundreds or thousands of violent criminals out.
Whatever steps need to be taken to acheive not letting a single innocent man step foot in a prison cell, should be taken.
Quote from: ALIE on April 19, 2016, 01:26:34 PMWhatever steps need to be taken to acheive not letting a single innocent man step foot in a prison cell, should be taken.Well, sure, but agreeing with this statement doesn't necessarily put you on one side or the other in your OP's dichotomy. You can think a 1-to-1,000 trade-off is not equitable or just, and still believe that the presumption of innocence should be heavily defended.
Why have a justice system at all? You can't prove 100% that a man is guilty of a crime. There will always be a question of guilt, and in your scenario that allows criminals to be set free.
Quote from: Dietrich Six on April 19, 2016, 01:34:37 PMWhy have a justice system at all? You can't prove 100% that a man is guilty of a crime. There will always be a question of guilt, and in your scenario that allows criminals to be set free.You can definitely prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a man is guilty of a crime. If there's any uncertainty, no sane juror should push for commitment.It's a much larger failing of the justice system to wrongfully give a guilty verdict than an innocent one.
Because you're advocating jailing an innocent so the 1000 criminals stay in jail.
"Better to let 100 guilty men go free than to condemn one innocent person"
