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Messages - Pendulate
391
« on: May 12, 2015, 09:33:18 PM »
I would chime in my opinion but I don't think I'm in the mood for an autistic vegan sperg out.
All I'm gonna say is I like eating meat both because I like it, and it pisses of sanctimonious vegans with sticks up their arses, yourself being a prime example.
Perhaps read through the thread and get a decent understanding of the subject before assuming there's nothing valuable to discuss?
392
« on: May 12, 2015, 09:31:51 PM »
notice how pendulate only has 67 posts, and all of them are from this thread and the thread about fur
It's nice when a topic worthy of discussion shows up.
393
« on: May 12, 2015, 09:30:17 PM »
If we we're to ever as an entire species to stop eating meat we would have to euthenise metric Fuck-tons of cows and other farm animals to stop some ridiculous environmental disasters including overabundance of CO2 How do you figure that? Animal farming is one o the most environmentally destructive industries on the planet, releasing the same amount of greenhouse gas emissions as every car, truck, train, plane and ship combined. This is not even accounting for the methane produced by livestock which is over 20 times more damaging to the environment and over a period of years this increases dramatically. and overpopulation and overgrazing or a combination of all. Except we do not pluck cows out of the wild and put them in farms; we breed them, by the billions per year, for our pleasure. In the end everything dies and this whole "morality of killing sentient life" thing comes back and sucker punches you in the face. So nothing is immoral because everything dies eventually? Would morality be more valid if we all lived forever? Or better yet, in triggers climate change. Have fun being a vegan in the next Ice Age or when the heat ruins our ability to produce enough crops for everyone. We need those crops to feed the animals we eat in the first place. And we put far more crops into animals than what we get out of their meat. We would also need to massively increase the amount of crops that we produce. In fact we would have to bring new crops to different places that they were not ....remember the last time we over-saturated the land with crops they couldn't sustain? Over 60% of the world's grain crops and 70% of soy are fed to livestock. We have more than enough to sustain ourselves and those in developing countries (assuming an intercontinental market was open) but we instead choose to indulge in meat, a first world luxury of the highest order. Would very much like to get a response to this.
394
« on: May 12, 2015, 09:18:32 PM »
Unless challengerX is claiming that the cells and bacteria in our body, which respond to stimuli, are conscious and feel pain (how many consciousnesses would my body have, then?) this is an absurd non-sequitur and is jumping to bigger conclusions than the scientists who actually conduct this research.
395
« on: May 12, 2015, 09:12:44 PM »
Because of a shitty diet. That is totally arbitrary and irrelevant. If my diet is perfectly healthy, and a diet with animal products is perfectly healthy, there is no distinction worth making. Except, of course, for the fact that the former does not require animals to be harmed and exploited. If you're basing your argument on meaningless rhetoric like that, your argument is a bad one. The point is if you need B12 supplements, that means s your diet is terrible. Which I illustrated by using my dog's diet of white rice and chicken as an example of a diet which does not give you all the vitamins you need.
And as I stressed, there is a big difference between the two because the use of supplements indicates very different things. You are trying to say that B12 in a vegan diet reflects poor nutrition in other areas. But I could just as easily say that meat consumption reflects poor nutrition in other areas -- failure to get the protein you need from plants, or to get B12 from microorganisms on plants. See how arbitrary this is? The B12 injection for your dog indicated poor diet because you thought it was getting all it needed from other sources. You want it to get its B12 from other sources, so the need for an injection is indicative of shortcomings in the diet you want to feed it. You view supplements as a last resort, just as I could view meat as a last resort for plant foods. If you are taking B12 as an integral part of your diet, then this is not an issue. By the way, dog food is commonly fortified with vitamins. How does this fit into your position?
396
« on: May 12, 2015, 08:56:10 PM »
Response to stimuli =/= subjective experience of pain.
397
« on: May 12, 2015, 08:48:15 PM »
I'm puzzled by the users who are lurking this thread just so they can like the posts that reinforce their views. Why not lay those views on the table and be willing to think critically about them? Why are so few people willing to have an intelligent, open-minded dialogue about this issue?
well, like you said, most of them probably know that they're wrong deep down, but they don't want to be told that
because if they admitted it, they'd have to change their lifestyle, and that would be too inconvenient
No doubt, it's just I can never remember being so resistant to the idea. I mean, I probably was at some point, but now such a blatant refusal to think rationally is so utterly... alien to me.
398
« on: May 12, 2015, 08:36:44 PM »
I'm puzzled by the users who are lurking this thread just so they can like the posts that reinforce their views. Why not lay those views on the table and be willing to think critically about them? Why are so few people willing to have an intelligent, open-minded dialogue about this issue?
399
« on: May 12, 2015, 08:19:04 PM »
i don't, personally
B12 is absolutely essential to get through either supplements or fortified foods. It's dirt cheap and will spare you some serious long-term detriments.
It can also take years for your blood B12 to drop after you stop taking it, so it may not show up on a medical. Best not to take any chances.
LOL B12 are you fuckking kidding me man.
I was giving my dog B12 shots because he has SIBO and couldn't digest his food properly. Which means he had to eat white rice and chicken because he couldn't stomach anything else (he couldn't even stomach that so that's why we went to the vet) and he needed to get his B12 up.
Just eat a steak.
You can take B12 orally. I'm not sure what relevance your dog's condition has here.
I know you can take B12 orally. He needed shots because his B12 level was really low.
The point is that's something you take when you have a deficiency. And if you have a deficiency because of your diet, then your diet is terrible.
No, your perspective is wrong. B12 supplements (injections especially) can either be seen as backup plans for deficiencies, or simply part of one's everyday diet (oral tablets especially). Their efficacy at both does not change.
400
« on: May 12, 2015, 07:38:41 PM »
i don't, personally
B12 is absolutely essential to get through either supplements or fortified foods. It's dirt cheap and will spare you some serious long-term detriments.
It can also take years for your blood B12 to drop after you stop taking it, so it may not show up on a medical. Best not to take any chances.
LOL B12 are you fuckking kidding me man.
I was giving my dog B12 shots because he has SIBO and couldn't digest his food properly. Which means he had to eat white rice and chicken because he couldn't stomach anything else (he couldn't even stomach that so that's why we went to the vet) and he needed to get his B12 up.
Just eat a steak.
You can take B12 orally. I'm not sure what relevance your dog's condition has here.
401
« on: May 12, 2015, 07:36:08 PM »
National parks would completely fail to succeed in this aspect if hunting were outlawed. Trophic cascades caused by unchecked prey-animal populations is devastating to the environment on a long-term timeline. Hunting is absolutely integral to environmentalism and preservation. I'd probably argue that the only reason the deer population, for example, is so high, is because we hunt them. So they breed faster as an evolutionary response. If we stopped hunting them, they wouldn't have any need to breed as fast as they do, would they?
No, it's not a result of evolution or even short-term adaptation. It's largely a result of urbanization and taking territory away from predators, allowing a huge rise in prey-animal population.
That is often not the case, especially with National Parks where the agencies explicitly state in their reports that keeping populations high for hunters is a priority.
They can artificially increase the numbers (largely because the licenses bring in income to sustain the parks I imagine), but it's still a conservation effort.
In part, perhaps. But I don't think you can argue that it is fundamentally a conservation effort, because there are certainly more ethical ways to go about conserving a species than manipulating its population and then charging a fee for people to come and kill it. There's a lot of ethical culpability here, not least in how animals are disposable and merely means to our ends, rather than individuals that ought be respected.
402
« on: May 12, 2015, 07:25:44 PM »
i don't, personally
B12 is absolutely essential to get through either supplements or fortified foods. It's dirt cheap and will spare you some serious long-term detriments. It can also take years for your blood B12 to drop after you stop taking it, so it may not show up on a medical. Best not to take any chances.
403
« on: May 12, 2015, 07:22:46 PM »
If you need to rely on dietary supplements and synthetic vitamins to keep your body working properly than your diet is not a healthy or natural one. Sorry, but this is the truth. But I already said veganism isn't natural, and I explained why 1) that isn't a bad thing and 2) it's an arbitrary line because supplements are given to the animals you consume. You did not address this, however. Could you? I never once implied that natural = healthy as there are many natural diets that you can have that are unhealthy. But I never said that, I said you claimed an unnatural diet = unhealthy. Which you did claim, and have failed to logically support. However, to be a real vegan you have to have a completely natural diet A "real vegan"? What exactly does this mean for you? Veganism requires abstaining from animal products, nothing more. And I'l be the first to admit that there are arbitrary lines drawn between "vegan" and "non-vegan" foods as well, but that isn't the point of the discussion. If vitamins are not animal-derived, they are not harming animals in their production. This is what I'm concerned about, and I use the term "vegan" for convenience. and the fact that you need to rely on supplements and synthetics will prevent you from ever being truly natural thus negating any PETA-like claims that humans aren't supposed to eat meat and veganism is the natural and healthy diet that humans are supposed to have. I'm not affiliated with PETA, though. And I never said any of those things. You are making straw men. No, the way meat is procured in the modern world bears no weight on whether or not eating meat is natural. The omnivorous diet is the one that we've evolved to have and a natural and healthy diet will revolve around getting the proper amounts of vitamins and minerals from all essential food groups. So whether the animals are raised unnaturally (through genetic manipulation, dosing of medicines and hormones) is irrelevant because... we've evolved to get nutrients from them? Okay, but I can easily say that the way B12 is produced is irrelevant because we have evolved to digest those bacteria cultures... see the arbitrary line here? It may be difficult because one reinforces a bias, but it's there. It isn't a coincidence that all of the worlds healthiest diets include some form of animal produce. It's essential to keeping your body 100% fully functional. A highly spurious claim which you have not supported with evidence. Also a non-sequitur: even if the world's healthiest diets included animal products, it does not follow that animal products are "essential to keeping your body 100% fully functional". If you want to be a vegan for spiritual or "ethical" reasons that's fine. Just don't start claiming the diet is either natural I didn't... or healthy It seems we still have a bit of terrain to cover here. You're going to need to defend your claim that unnatural = unhealthy. and try to force people to join you. I think we should always be able to criticize people for unethical practices, just as those people should be open to criticism. How else would we better ourselves? As a side note vegans typically don't seem to understand that being omnivorous is both cheaper and more efficient. Veganism is not a practical life style for the vast majority of people in the world.
That's a misconception. The cheapest foods available are vegan: rice, legumes, bread, seeds, vegetables, fruit, etc. People only think of the "specialty" vegan products that obviously cost more, just as specialty animal products cost more as well.
404
« on: May 12, 2015, 06:52:11 PM »
We have to destroy life to eat. Whether it's an animal or a plant, it's all precious life were cutting short for our own needs.
That's just how it is. It's not a very nice way to live, and when I stip and actually think about the animal I just ate, it's fucked up. But we need to kill other living beings to live. There's no two ways about it.
That doesn't mean we should go around callously killing anything we like. There are steps we can take to minimize the harm we inflict on others.
405
« on: May 12, 2015, 06:47:52 PM »
don't waste your time with lemon
a kid who thinks pre-ordering video games is a bigger issue than the suffering of sentient creatures
I think he understands well enough.
how do you figure
if people truly understood the impact of what they are doing, if people really understood what it means to be killed and eaten, everyone would be a vegan
if not by action, than by philosophy
He understands the flaws in his argument, which is why he subtly shifted from refusing to admit his actions are unethical, to offhandedly admitting they are. He's just reluctant to register the weight of the issue, because to do so would inconvenience him.
406
« on: May 12, 2015, 06:41:44 PM »
National parks would completely fail to succeed in this aspect if hunting were outlawed. Trophic cascades caused by unchecked prey-animal populations is devastating to the environment on a long-term timeline. Hunting is absolutely integral to environmentalism and preservation. I'd probably argue that the only reason the deer population, for example, is so high, is because we hunt them. So they breed faster as an evolutionary response. If we stopped hunting them, they wouldn't have any need to breed as fast as they do, would they?
No, it's not a result of evolution or even short-term adaptation. It's largely a result of urbanization and taking territory away from predators, allowing a huge rise in prey-animal population.
That is often not the case, especially with National Parks where the agencies explicitly state in their reports that keeping populations high for hunters is a priority.
407
« on: May 12, 2015, 06:36:34 PM »
don't waste your time with lemon
a kid who thinks pre-ordering video games is a bigger issue than the suffering of sentient creatures
I think he understands well enough.
408
« on: May 12, 2015, 06:31:56 PM »
The petri dish burger that was made sometime last year, if you were offered the chance to eat one - would you? I fully support in vitro animal products, so if the burger was going to be disposed of if I didn't eat it, I'd eat it. Otherwise, I'd let someone else have it, but I wouldn't condemn them for it. And then for a longer view hypothetical, say that we found the food equivalent of HeLa cells (That were safe to consume, rather than literal cancer cells) where from the cellular legacy of one animal (That didn't die to give these cells, just as Henrietta wasn't harmed by the cells being taken) a source of death free 'meat' was available for the global population, would you object to that?
No more than I object to using plastic made from dinosaurs.
409
« on: May 12, 2015, 06:25:00 PM »
You're right. I don't care about the animal. Why should I? That doesn't necessarily mean I think the way they're killed is okay though. But again, that's the unethical part. Even if you dislike how they are killed, I don't think your concern is significant enough to bother voicing in the first place. It seems like you're attempting to absolve yourself of some moral responsibility, otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to couch your statements with it. Just because eating meat is surrounding by unethical means doesn't make the act of eating meat unethical.
It's like video game pre-ordering. Pre-ordering in itself is fine, it's the way pre-ordering is abused that's the problem. I'm honestly rather stunned at how you continually fail to address the logic I present you and just keep repeating the same sentence as though that makes it more substantial. I may have to concede that you are not willing to think critically about this issue and leave it there. Or, let you leave it there: But whatever. I guess I'll just continue being immoral. No skin off my nose.
410
« on: May 12, 2015, 09:57:13 AM »
I'm not paying for them to kill the animals the way they do. I'm paying for the end product. That is highly flawed logic. In a supply/demand market, products -- and, by extension, the production methods -- are either supported or opposed by the consumers speaking with their wallets. If the methods are ethically objectionable, but not illegal, the only way to elicit change is to stop supporting them, and the only way to incentivise this is by ceasing to give them your money. By paying for the end product you are condoning how the product is made, and there is no way to separate the two that has any basis in reality. It would simply be a comforting -- and disjointed -- story you tell yourself. it's not like I have a choice over how they're killed. Except you do, it just isn't as convenient as you would like. The truth is rarely what we wish to hear, especially where ethics are concerned. And I'm certainly not going to inconvenience myself over it. Well, that's the morally condemnable part, isn't it? You cannot proclaim to care about animal welfare on one hand while refusing to do something about it, for the mildest of inconveniences, on the other. it's astonishingly insincere, and should rightly be condemned as unethical.
411
« on: May 12, 2015, 08:55:52 AM »
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.
It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.
There's literally nothing unethical about eating meat.
The way the animals are killed? Sure, but eating them? Nope.
What if eating them supports the unethical ways in which they are killed?
That doesn't make eating them unethical.
I fail to see how it doesn't. If unethical practices are committed solely because you are paying for them to be committed, then there is huge ethical culpability on your part. You are not merely complicit, you are actively supporting (and demanding) the killing of animals for your consumption. Therefore voicing disapproval for something while at the same time condoning it with your money is intellectually disreputable and your words carry no weight.
412
« on: May 12, 2015, 05:24:51 AM »
You never gave any citations for your claims either. My apologies: http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources"The vitamin B12 component in B12 supplements and fortified foods is made by bacteria and sourced from bacteria cultures; it is not taken from animal products. However, some companies might put gelatin in their B12 supplements, though this appears to be less and less common. It is easy to find vegan B12 supplements on the Internet or in grocery stores in developed countries." Considering B12 is naturally occurring, it's going to be more abundant than any sort of lab produced synthetic supplement. Which is the main point of contention, if you have to use supplements and synthetics to be healthy then veganism is neither a healthy or natural diet.
I'll concede that it's not "natural". However, you would also need to concede that eating meat isn't natural either, considering livestock are selectively bred, vaccinated, given growth hormones, and occasionally B12 injections. You would also need to concede that just about any food you eat that is processed in any way is not natural. Clearly this is a purely arbitrary and meaningless line to draw. I strongly object that it isn't healthy, though. You seem to be causally linking this to your claim of it being unnatural: if something isn't natural it must be unhealthy. This is obviously problematic because there are plenty of "unnatural" things that are beneficial for us, such as medicine. Unless you are saying that chemotherapy is nothing compared to the powers of lemongrass and cocoa powder, this argument isn't really valid. All that matters is that we can achieve optimal health with the aid of supplements. If we can't, then it is best to eat a healthy, wholefood diet. But we can. This is not disputable. And supplementing B12 is a cheap, easy, and effective way to do it.
413
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:34:50 AM »
Yeah we eat leaves yay.
Shut up, I'mma eat my fucking steak, this will never work, you know that, live on.
*sips tea*
Is the competition for biggest straw man underway?
414
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:23:59 AM »
double
415
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:23:35 AM »
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.
It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.
There's literally nothing unethical about eating meat.
The way the animals are killed? Sure, but eating them? Nope.
What if eating them supports the unethical ways in which they are killed?
416
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:22:36 AM »
Uhh, no. Most B12 comes from animals Citation needed? Oh man, I sure love ingesting a healthy dose of cyanide with my breakfast cereal every morning. It really is the best way to start my day.
Cyanacobalamin has such a low molecular weight of cyanide that it is perfectly safe. If you hear the word cyanide and automatically think it must be bad, you have fallen victim to irrationality. http://jacknorrisrd.com/safety-of-cyanide-in-cyanocobalamin/"In summary, the amount of cyanide in 1,000 micrograms of cyanocobalamin is about .6% of the amount that is thought to be the lower level that causes harm." And besides, you can take methylcobalamin instead.
417
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:07:29 AM »
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
The fact that they try to take th moral high ground and make out that meat eaters have a broken moral compass.
It's laughably sad.
But that's a criticism of vegans, not veganism. I don't deny some vegans act morally righteous, but that isn't relevant to the question of whether eating animals is more or less ethical than not eating them.
418
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:02:55 AM »
Vitamin B12
It's readily obtainable through supplements and fortified foods.
And is not vegan friendly since it comes from animals.
Almost all sources of B12 are totally synthetic and not animal-derived -- including those given to animals themselves.
419
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:01:07 AM »
Vegans make me laugh
Vegans, or veganism?
Both
What about veganism makes you laugh?
Everything
But nothing you can articulate?
420
« on: May 12, 2015, 04:00:36 AM »
Vitamin B12
It's readily obtainable through supplements and fortified foods.
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