If an argument can be made that segregation is a core belief of any major religion, then I guess legally it should be allowed. Morally, nope, it would be awful.  Anyway if such a thing happened in this day and age, people would throw a field day and the business would go under really fast, therefore turning it into a non-issue again. These sorts of things have a way of sorting themselves out. Even if the law protects them, their reputation would not. But realistically, such a scenario would not happen with the current laws in place.

Also I hope it goes without saying that my folks would never discriminate against anybody.

Nuka, what choice left is there? These people genuinely feel their beliefs are being violated when they are forced to cater or bake cakes for gay weddings. If you dont like their beliefs, the solution is simple: don't shop there. Don't give them your business. Forcing somebody to violate their believs is not a move of compassion, but one of hostility. So the only way to legally deter that is to let the customer know where the money is going.

Quote from: o______________o on April 15, 2015, 01:42:20 PM

Quote from: Lemön | Queen of Anal on April 15, 2015, 01:35:19 PM

Can we just ban religion?

You could certainly try. But it would be foolish to make the attempt.

I think it's time for a good old fashioned lynching.

A majority of the country practice religion. Can you imagine what would happen if somebody tried to pass a law banning it? They'd be laughed out of court. Even if the law were passed, it would cause more chaos than good. The religions would fight back and since they are the majority, they would win, especially when it comes to Christianity. People complain about how Christians have power and yet that's the very reason why attempting to ban religion would be a fool's vice.

Quote from: o______________o on April 15, 2015, 11:54:52 AM

Quote from: Sandtrap on April 15, 2015, 11:24:10 AM

Or we could just stop being insensitive fucks who care so much about where other people are putting their body parts.

And just fuckin' do your damn job and serve your customers.

But no. That'd be much too hard wouldn't it.

It has nothing to do with insensitivity Sandtrap. I have a family who runs a Christian owned business and they empathize with homosexuals and they realize it is not a choice on their part to be homosexual. They have no problem with civil unions or if some other church decides to perform gay wedding, but in their mindset, they cannot in good conscience cater to a gay wedding because they believe in the divine union of a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation. Which does have its own logic.

I disagree with my family, obviously, but I am not ostracized for it nor do they show hostility towards homosexuals. Anyway, my suggestion is not about refusing service. As a matter of fact, in the very first sentence of my topic, I said that the businesses should go ahead and perform their services, just that the proceeds will be redirected in a manner that would be undesirable for the LGBT community. It isn't about hatred, about insensitivity, it's about preventing the LGBT community purposefully seeking these businesses out with the sole intent of suing them. You may disagree with these businesses ideology, but if you take an objective look at it, those businesses are not harming anybody and they do not deserve the attacks that they get. You are a nice guy man, surely you can see this? I have a simple philosophy for anybody who is truly passionate about marriage equality: Don't like it, don't shop there. It really is that simple.

On my end of things, I actually don't particularily care. Because it amounts to nothing. Both sides are just in a slap fight while once more, the people who don't deserve it are stuck in the crossfire. It's always been like that.

But I've a question for you, and if I was there in person, a question for your parents.

I don't remember where, or when I heard the statement. But, it was, from somebody christian. When asked, about his stance on non-believers or gays or lesbians or anybody who didn't fit into the bible's standards, he said something along the lines of this.

"I don't hate them and I don't seek to cause harm. I pity them. I am sad for them that they are not a part of God's plan or do not wish to be. I am sad that they will go to hell."

"So while they are here, I do my best to make their time good regardless of whether or not they choose to follow gods plan, because they will remember their days here, when they are in hell."

Now. Personally. I can't stand the oppressive, controlling nature of most religions. But that guy, has my respect. He might have been pushing towards the deep end. But at the very, fucking least, he did something positive.

So my question is this.

What's stopping any christian or religious person from adopting that mantra?

My question to your parents?

Why not think of things that way?

I won't allow you to answer because I know the answer. Selfishness and blind stupidity. Not an insult to your parents. But tell you what. Can you do this for me?

Present to them that idea. And if they reject it? If they wave it off.

Then you can call them silly. Because that idea breaks no rules. In fact in old scriptures I think the bible even talks of things like that. Take pity on those who aren't a part of the plan or those who don't wish to be.

I will present them that question and I will return with the answer, but I can take a guess at how they will respond.

"I don't hate them and I don't seek to cause harm. I pity them. I am sad for them that they are not a part of God's plan or do not wish to be. I am sad that they will go to hell."

First of all, this belief that some people are not a part of God's plan is not shared by the Catholic church. Nobody is born perfect and we each have our flaws, but we do have free will. In their mind, having a disorder is not an excuse to commit adultery just as being a zoophile is no excuse to commit bestiality EVEN IF the animal in question shows signs of consent. Furthermore, it is not ingrained in stone that homosexuals will burn in hell for practicing their homosexuality. Is it a sin in the Catholic Church's mind? Yes. But then again, we all sin. God is merciful, he understands everybody intimately and he knows their intent and it is assumed they will be judged accordingly.

However, the reason my parents don't support gay marriage is because they believe it turns sex into something other than the purpose of sex, which is the sacred act of procreation. In the church's belief, it is held that such a thing denigrates the sanctity of life. Which is why it is also taboo to utilize birth control or to commit adultery

"So while they are here, I do my best to make their time good regardless of whether or not they choose to follow gods plan, because they will remember their days here, when they are in hell."

Again, the church does not hold this ideology. They cannot judge intent, only God can do that. But they will not in good conscience support something they believe is immoral. There is a saying that you've probably heard before, "we each have our own crosses to carry." and in their mindset, homosexuality is another cross to carry. Jesus Christ set a precedent of self-sacrifice by allowing himself to be crucified onto a cross, so it is expected that we at least try to put forth the same level of self-sacrifice. I don't agree with them, in fact I think that sort of constant self-sacrifice of being miserable will hinder one's ability to help others because the whole time, they will focus on how lonely and miserable they are.

I won't allow you to answer because I know the answer. Selfishness and blind stupidity. Not an insult to your parents. But tell you what. Can you do this for me?

Saying something is not an insult does not mean it is not an insult. Not only is it offensive, but it's also presumptuous. My parents are some of the smartest and selfless people I know. They are both chemical engineers and in fact, my mother was one of the top guns at a pretty big organization (I won't say the name because I like to be cautious with my personal info). But they have not only been generous with their money, but with their time towards helping others. It really upsets me when people prejudge those who hold similar beliefs as my parents and make assumptions that they are stupid and blind. It belies their mantra of tolerance when really, they simply wish to vilify the opposition as you have just done. You are speaking out of anger Sandtrap, not out of love. I've made the same mistake many times (including last night) and I have regretted it. Anger and confirmation bias is not only a hindrance to objective thinking, but also to building bridges. The fact that you think Catholicism holds the belief that some are part of God's plan while others aren't speaks of your ignorance on the issue.

I'm gay, I'm Catholic, so you can trust that I've suffered over this confliction and sought answers. I've scoured through the bible and interpretations and I can see where the church is coming from, it is a very valid fear. However I also hold that homosexual relationships are harmless if they are treated with the same monogamous commitment and respect that is required of a traditional heterosexual relationship. I've had discussions with them on this issue plenty of times before. It never got heated, it never broke out into fights, they were calm, rational arguments that we simply accepted that we shared different views.

Do not mistake Catholicism for fundamentalism, they are not the same.

EDIT: Also, how are you going to ask a question and say you won't allow an answer? Do you really think that is the most productive way to build bridges? I like you man, you are one of the most thoughtful people I've encountered on a forum, but you are speaking from vitriol not from acceptance.

If a gay couple asks a Christian business to violate their beliefs, then the business should go ahead and perform that service. BUT, they should first notify that the proceeds will be donated towards efforts to lobby in support of traditional marriage. If it is something like catering, where the employees have to be there to provide services, the business should tell them that all their people will smile, be professional, and everyone of them will be wearing crucifixes and have the Holy Family embroidered on their uniforms. If they are offended by that, they the business can say "“Oh, you would be offended by that? I’m so sorry, but you approached us because we are a Christian business right?"

Then tell them that the business will take out an ad in the paper to let everyone know what they (the gay couple) did with their money, thanking them by name for their business so that the business could make the contribution. I suspect this approach, if adopted far and wide, would put an end to these silly attacks on Christian businesses.

 This thread crashed and burned fast.

Apparently a certain somebody on here is spreading a bunch of nasty rumors about me, probably making me out to be some sort of villain. Heard any good ones lately?

and now you don't.

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