Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 12:37:01 PM

the pain you would feel if you were shot feeling is majorly emotional

You are just so unbelievably wrong. If something cuts a nerve, it hurts like hell. Maybe you've never been physically hurt in your life, so you don't understand what it's like. But trust me, it's physically painful, and it has almost nothing to do with emotions. Nothing.

Like I said, you don't understand what I'm talking about.

There is absolutely an emotional side to that pain, that you do not understand.
That is the part of the pain you can share, that makes other people feel bad for you.
A LOT of people don't understand this, so I wouldn't expect you to.

That's the part that keeps you looking back on it years later and thinking about how much it hurt.

If somebody looks at your wound and feels bad for you without you telling them it hurts, then they're projecting too, it's a thing people do to other people because they understand that you obviously must feel something that they can identify with.

You make the mistake of thinking a dog feels the same thing you would (a lot of people make that mistake, but most don't capitalise on it, because subconsciously they don't identify with the dog).

Like I said, it's a complex philosophical construct you have to actually try to understand, but you feel like trying would be some sort of thoughtcrime.

I don't expect you to agree with me, I just expect you to understand the philosophical school that creates ethics before you go around talking about them.

So you can watch the dog reel in pain, but you'll never understand that the dog will never care that it was in that pain beyond point that it can feel it, assuming it even lives, which if it doesn't, none of its doggy friends will mourn for it, so there's nobody to feel bad for.

Quote from: PSU on July 05, 2015, 11:40:27 AM

I suffered through football practices in order to get better.

I suffered through school in order to get and education.

I suffer through work in order to provide for my family.

NONE of this is suffering. None of it.

Losing your limbs is suffering.
Crippling illnesses are suffering.
Depression is suffering.

Physical pain, physical anguish is suffering.
Torture is suffering.

And gOD bless the brave men who go through it to keep america safe.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 11:59:31 AM

SO your ethics are an emotional construct that you apply to the unshareable physical wellbeing of another?

I made no mention of emotions whatsoever.

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You don't feel bad for someone when they get shots do you?

Yes, I do. Shots kinda hurt a little bit. I wouldn't want even that tiny little discomfort imposed on anybody.

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Anyhow, you can only share emotions with someone, and if something can't be shared with you, it shouldn't matter to you. Of course you can experience pain for an animal if you PROJECT.

So the dog wasn't suffering, then.

Yep, you're insane. I reiterate:

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 11:55:44 AM

If you don't think physical pain matters, then I hope you get raped by ten people at once. While on fire.

because it doesn't matter, right
it's nothing

You're purposefully choosing to ignore or misrepresent my argument.

Being raped by ten people at once would leave me with serious emotional scars.
If I didn't have emotions it would be fine as soon as they were done and I would never care again.

And I know you didn't bring up emotions, you were only talking about the physical side, which is something that can't be shared with you, but someone's emotions can. If it can't be shared with you it's not that you shouldn't care, it's that you literally can't, unless you project, which is narcissistic.

I wouldn't want even that tiny little discomfort imposed on anybody.

That's literally you saying you're fine with them getting awful diseases because you'd rather not put them in pain now.

I think we've run into two snags here.
1. You can't stop projecting, and therefore can't stop feeling pain that can't be shared with you.
2. You're not an "ends justify the means" type of person, which I am.

These are things we aren't going to resolve in debate.

mustard beef keeps giving them back their bomb

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 11:34:29 AM

Like I said, literally cannot stop projecting.

YouTube

Yeah, the dog totally wasn't writhing in SHEER AGONY at the end, there. Aftering being shot.
That's just me projecting!

You are insane.

In. Sane.

Why does it matter if it was experiencing physical pain, it's not like as its life was closing it realised it had never been to niagra falls or always wanted to go skydiving.

The dog literally did not care that it was dying, it only felt the physical pain of being shot.

You're just thinking about how you would feel if you were in that much pain.

Physical pain doesn't matter, only the way it makes you feel emotionally.

Quick man, make a youtube channel for it or your family will literally fall apart.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 11:20:11 AM

The point of this wall of text, is that physical pain isn't the worst part of being in pain, it's the emotional response that animals are incapable of. Dying isn't the worst part of death, it's the mourning by loved ones that animals don't do.

I disagree, infinitely. Dying is the worst part of death. Suffering is the worst thing, ever, and we have an ethical responsibility of preventing it when we can.

I don't care that animals don't mourn. At all.

Dying is a natural part of life and there's no point of putting it off.\

Like I said, you're just biased because you can't wrap your head around a mental state with no emotions because you're projecting, which is massively narcissistic.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 10:40:14 AM

Eh you're getting confused.
Subjective pain would be something like psychosomatic pain.

Says who?

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Sentience is not simply the ability to feel something, it's the ability to feel something in response to something that isn't literally happening. A lot of people would say a dog mourns for their master, but really the dog knows, "That man scratches me behind the ears and feeds me, staying with him is a good thing." Animals don't have these abstract feelings that are subjective rather than objective, and that's what makes someone sentient.

Let's pretend for a moment that you're right. You're wrong, completely, but let's pretend for a moment that you're not wrong.

The fact that other organisms feel "objective pain" is precisely why it's wrong to torture and eat them. That's everything. Their capacity to suffer, regardless of their sentience, is the deal-breaker. It's wrong to harm animals. I mean, I feel like I'm talking to a preschooler, but I guess it's necessary sometimes.

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Subjective feelings are an abstract thought, and most animals are not capable of abstract thought.

Who cares?

Verb, if you're going to ignore centuries of philosophical work and pre-established definitions, then I just can't help you and you're actively making the choice to be ignorant.

But in regards, to whether or not animals are capable of abstract thought, which is what makes something sentient, if something is not sentient then nobody will mourn for it or care about the fact that it is gone, because of the fact that its family are of the same species and same cognitive capabilities.

You give away a cat's kittens at birth and the cat gives zero fucks.
It isn't capable of abstractly processing what could have been with those kittens.

It wouldn't matter to momma cat if you turned around and made kitty cat stew.
The humans might care, because cats are an animal we form emotional attachments to, but you don't see me eating dogs like the Chinese, do you?

That's why sentience matters, not because of the subject, but because of the subject's peers.

But that only applies to death.
As far as pain is concerned, if an animal is in physical pain, they don't begin suffering emotionally like a human would.
And I don't really see why physical suffering matters, unless the animal can form an emotional connection to that pain.

Basically you're just projecting yourself onto those animals and wondering "what if I was in that position?" and then reeling because of all of the emotional terror that you can contrive. But the animal can't. It's an egotistical approach to the world that forces you to put yourself in the position of others and assume they feel the same way you would.

You're biased about suffering because you suffer in an extremely different way than animals do.

The point of this wall of text, is that physical pain isn't the worst part of being in pain, it's the emotional response that animals are incapable of. Dying isn't the worst part of death, it's the mourning by loved ones that animals don't do.

Quote from: PSU on July 05, 2015, 10:42:32 AM

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 10:29:17 AM

Quote from: PSU on July 05, 2015, 10:27:20 AM

Obviously it's niggers.

And when I say niggers, I mean people who contribute nothing to society, commit crimes, and lack education. Regardless of race.

then why not just say that, then

idiot

Cause if I didn't explain it plebs like you would think I'm referring to all black people.

Dumbass

When I see the word nigger I think blacks. Not your made up definition.

But I guess you're right. Anyone who doesn't get your personal references before you've even explained them is obviously an idiot.

That's not what I think of.
The word is undergoing rebranding and if you haven't heard of the new definition then you've been living under a rock since the 90s.

Listen to more Chris Rock.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 10:14:48 AM

Animals feel and suffer objectively, not subjectively.

...So do humans. When you stab a human in the eye, they are going to suffer just as much as a dog would, or a pig, or a cow, etc.

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 10:01:26 AM

Once again, that's objective pain, it has nothing to do with sentience.

Yes, it does. There is no way to experience pain "subjectively". Pain is a feeling. The definition that you stated from Wikipedia states that sentience = FEELING. Pain is a negative feeling.

You're getting 2+2 wrong here. This is simple arithmetic logic, and you're getting it wrong.

Quote from: Verbatim on July 05, 2015, 10:01:26 AM

Once again, pain is objective.

It's also a feeling, making it a part of sentience.

Eh you're getting confused.
Subjective pain would be something like psychosomatic pain.

Sentience is not simply the ability to feel something, it's the ability to feel something in response to something that isn't literally happening. A lot of people would say a dog mourns for their master, but really the dog knows, "That man scratches me behind the ears and feeds me, staying with him is a good thing." Animals don't have these abstract feelings that are subjective rather than objective, and that's what makes someone sentient.

Subjective feelings are an abstract thought, and most animals are not capable of abstract thought.
Rather, if they are, there isn't any evidence and it is therefore illogical to assume they are.
You don't see me eating the two or something that are, do you?

You can choose to ignore subjectivity vs objectivity when it comes to feeling, but that just makes you ignorant.

Yes, it is, considering that we have the ability to consider our actions and deem them unethical (which they are). Ants can't do that, because ants are stupid. Let's not be like the stupid ants. That sounds really dumb. Like, really really really dumb.

Ants are incredibly smart as a hivemind, perhaps not indiviually though.

That would make you an evil, solipsistic sociopath.

I don't see why that isn't the way all people should think, and subconsciously, a lot of people do. Most people don't genuinely care care for people who haven't endeared themselves to them in any way. But I won't refute that I'm probably a sociopath of some sort, as there are a lot of other normal human emotions that I don't identify with, like love, which I think I may be incapable of.

I'm not saying they have abstract thought. That's not what sentience means. It just means that you can feel. They suffer. That's the whole point.

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively (Wikipedia) Animals feel and suffer objectively, not subjectively. If a thought is subjective, I consider it abstract.

Stab a dog in the eye and see how much it appreciates it.

Once again, that's objective pain, it has nothing to do with sentience.

Except there's observable scientific evidence to suggest that, yes, many animal species can in fact and DO in fact feel intense pain when you stab them in the eye.

Denying that is just like a religious kook denying evolution.

It's that insane.

Once again, pain is objective.

Quote from: Sᴏʟᴏɴᴏɪᴅ on July 05, 2015, 08:38:41 AM

This is the point where vegans and vegetarians like to pretend animals are sentient

They are. Pretending that they're not is just a convenience for you. It would probably psychologically destroy you if you were to account for one moment all of the suffering that is endured by all sentient non-human species in the wild and especially those kept in factory farms.

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In all, humans evolved eating animals, it's not something new. It would adversely impact the ecosystem if we stopped.
In fact, we evolved mass-murdering each other, and it's already impacting the ecosystem adversely, it's something we need to go back to doing, and get over our moral qualms about it.

you need to be more subtle with your trolls

I'm not even joking, "humane" treatment to others, and animals, is ruining the planet.
It's something you, as an anti-natalist, can't understand, because you don't see any problem with humanity disappearing in just one generation.

Ignoring the circumstances we evolved under is causing over-population, and as people are a part of the environment, the way that we evolved interacting with other species is just as important.

We eat other animals, we farm other animals.
Ants also farm other animals.

The fact that we do it more efficiently is nothing to be ashamed of.

And I don't care about the struggles of other humans, much less the struggles of sub-human animals.
Many sub-primate humans lack the communicative abilities to demonstrate abstract thought, and you therefore cannot claim that they have abstract thought.

It's the same as the god argument, you can't make a case for an unobservable construct.
You make the statement that animals are sentient in the same faith that a religious person believes in god, and there is nothing logical about it.

Endgame: kill others in total war or overpopulate the planet, eat animals or destroy the ecosystem.

Oh, I should also mention that if we went back to total war factory farming would no longer be necessary.

Cheat.

qoq

qoq