Video Games, consent, and you.

Batch · January 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM

So, Verbs: Dark Souls thread brought up something interesting which I haven't exactly thought about before in gaming, consent. Do you permit such a thing in gaming to happen, without your knowledge or allowance prior to it happening, how does it effect you? And why is it a good, and/or bad thing.

Verbs example, of course was Dark Souls, where players can invade someone else's world, hunt them down, and kill them. The victim does not know prior to this when the perpetrator will arrive, they just know that it 'can' happen, possibly resulting in their death and getting sent back to a bonfire, where they will need to progress again, and more carefully to reclaim the souls that they had lost. Now, where I stand with this is, personally it is not a problem. You know that it can happen, generally the first time is a shock to the system, but Dark Souls does that a bit in general. So you know it can happen, but you continue to play, you just dont know when.

Hence to the case, if you allow yourself to play this game online then you consent to the possibility of your world getting invaded. This works very similar to most RPGs and random encounters, its much the same way but much less dynamic. You know you can, and probably will find yourself in a random encounter, you just don't know when.

This is about as far as it goes with gaming for the time being. If someone manages to hack into your system and manipulate how you play, possibly by halting your ability to play at all, then that is yes, a breach of consent, but this goes out of gaming and into personal security and privacy as a lot more then your gaming information can be accessed. But if a game allows a similar feature to be applied within the gameplay, and the player understands completely that it can happen, then consent is given due to the players choice in firing up the game and playing with that risk, and in some cases being the perpetrator themselves.

Now, when will this step to a higher level? VR.

Will this be something we're currently capable of, no. But I fear the world of full-dive VR (which would be complete immersion, having the technology to escape our bodies and enter a true virtual world) will be a grim, and dark place. Much like the real world. As I feel this is when gaming's consensual issues will rise, and possibly go into the hands of law, depending on how much a game can allow.

I'll be brief and just say it. Rape.

When will gaming advance to the stage where that could potentially be possible? (they would have to make genitals, if the tech is possible, if not....it may cause a lot of trauma to the brain, so you'd need to make sure everything is there)
Full Dive VR, would first of all, be limited to a certain age barrier, any lower then 18 would create a lot of ethics issues. Paedophilia would be carried out and possibly carry over to reality. Statements would have to be signed by every user, so they cannot sue the developer, mainly for things over users would do. This already happens but in a much more tame way 'Gaming Experience may change online' along those lines.

But till then, those problems will need to be tackled, but for now...we have not reached that level, and maybe thats a good thing. What are your thoughts, friends?

eggsalad · January 14, 2016, 05:39:34 AM

@VR
There's a reason boxes say "online content not rated".

to be honest shouldn't be criminal unless it's repeated or legitimately threatening. standard report systems should be fine to weed out people.

Batch · January 14, 2016, 05:41:22 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:39:34 AM

There's a reason boxes say "online content not rated".

I did mention that. What I'm saying is in the future, that small blurb might not be enough. Especially when someone gets sued because of it.

Batch · January 14, 2016, 05:44:03 AM

Depends how sick and twisted you are, if someone can fulfil their desires without it actually being classed as criminal, I wouldnt be surprised if they buy multiple systems, see how long they can get away with it.

This is a very messy can of worms I've opened, now that I think about it.

Big Boss · January 14, 2016, 05:44:19 AM

I hate the idea of people forcefully entering my game without my permission with the intent to kill me. So I play Dark Souls offline

eggsalad · January 14, 2016, 05:45:50 AM

Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM

(they would have to make genitals, if the tech is possible, if not....it may cause a lot of trauma to the brain, so you'd need to make sure everything is there)

idk about you that sounds cool not having genitals just being smooth

Batch · January 14, 2016, 05:49:48 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:45:50 AM

Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM
(they would have to make genitals, if the tech is possible, if not....it may cause a lot of trauma to the brain, so you'd need to make sure everything is there)
idk about you that sounds cool not having genitals just being smooth

I'd feel like I'm missing a limb, I think that would be weird as hell not having those parts there. I think it's all a development thing, and if it would actually cause any mental issues. Maybe it would be easier for females, I don't know how they'd feel, but I think a lot of males would agree with me.

Not that I want to whip my dick out in the virtual world......but just, it's a difficult thing to explain, imagine if you could feel something which wasn't there? It'd feel wrong.

eggsalad · January 14, 2016, 05:53:13 AM

Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:49:48 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:45:50 AM
Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM
(they would have to make genitals, if the tech is possible, if not....it may cause a lot of trauma to the brain, so you'd need to make sure everything is there)
idk about you that sounds cool not having genitals just being smooth
I'd feel like I'm missing a limb, I think that would be weird as hell not having those parts there. I think it's all a development thing, and if it would actually cause any mental issues. Maybe it would be easier for females, I don't know how they'd feel, but I think a lot of males would agree with me.

Not that I want to whip my dick out in the virtual world......but just, it's a difficult thing to explain, imagine if you could feel something which wasn't there? It'd feel wrong.

but feeling weird and different is the awesomest part of video games

it's also my fetish

Batch · January 14, 2016, 05:56:46 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:53:13 AM

Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:49:48 AM
Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:45:50 AM
Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM
(they would have to make genitals, if the tech is possible, if not....it may cause a lot of trauma to the brain, so you'd need to make sure everything is there)
idk about you that sounds cool not having genitals just being smooth
I'd feel like I'm missing a limb, I think that would be weird as hell not having those parts there. I think it's all a development thing, and if it would actually cause any mental issues. Maybe it would be easier for females, I don't know how they'd feel, but I think a lot of males would agree with me.

Not that I want to whip my dick out in the virtual world......but just, it's a difficult thing to explain, imagine if you could feel something which wasn't there? It'd feel wrong.
but feeling weird and different is the awesomest part of video games

it's also my fetish

O_O

Interesting, weird.......but interesting. You're the kind of person who wouldnt mind getting converted into a robotic body aren't you?

eggsalad · January 14, 2016, 05:57:50 AM

Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:56:46 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:53:13 AM
Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:49:48 AM
Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:45:50 AM
Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM
(they would have to make genitals, if the tech is possible, if not....it may cause a lot of trauma to the brain, so you'd need to make sure everything is there)
idk about you that sounds cool not having genitals just being smooth
I'd feel like I'm missing a limb, I think that would be weird as hell not having those parts there. I think it's all a development thing, and if it would actually cause any mental issues. Maybe it would be easier for females, I don't know how they'd feel, but I think a lot of males would agree with me.

Not that I want to whip my dick out in the virtual world......but just, it's a difficult thing to explain, imagine if you could feel something which wasn't there? It'd feel wrong.
but feeling weird and different is the awesomest part of video games

it's also my fetish
O_O

Interesting, weird.......but interesting. You're the kind of person who wouldnt mind getting converted into a robotic body aren't you?

nah I just have an amputation and transformation fetish

Batch · January 14, 2016, 05:58:34 AM

Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:57:50 AM

Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:56:46 AM
Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:53:13 AM
Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:49:48 AM
Quote from: eggsalad on January 14, 2016, 05:45:50 AM
Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 05:36:43 AM
(they would have to make genitals, if the tech is possible, if not....it may cause a lot of trauma to the brain, so you'd need to make sure everything is there)
idk about you that sounds cool not having genitals just being smooth
I'd feel like I'm missing a limb, I think that would be weird as hell not having those parts there. I think it's all a development thing, and if it would actually cause any mental issues. Maybe it would be easier for females, I don't know how they'd feel, but I think a lot of males would agree with me.

Not that I want to whip my dick out in the virtual world......but just, it's a difficult thing to explain, imagine if you could feel something which wasn't there? It'd feel wrong.
but feeling weird and different is the awesomest part of video games

it's also my fetish
O_O

Interesting, weird.......but interesting. You're the kind of person who wouldnt mind getting converted into a robotic body aren't you?
nah I just have an amputation and transformation fetish

Again

O_O

Oh · January 14, 2016, 06:16:37 AM

I think you're overestimating the impact VR will have. The ability to rape has to be programmed in, just like right now. Only niche games will have rape in them, just like now.

Pippen · January 14, 2016, 06:18:17 AM

Wait a minute.

We're applying consent to a video game?

Here's a better way to put it. When you pay the store for the game you acknowledge and accept everything than can/would happen. Since you are literally buying the game.

Verbatim · January 14, 2016, 06:29:59 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 06:18:17 AM

Wait a minute.

We're applying consent to a video game?

Here's a better way to put it. When you pay the store for the game you acknowledge and accept everything than can/would happen. Since you are literally buying the game.

Except that's retarded.

Pippen · January 14, 2016, 06:31:26 AM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 14, 2016, 06:29:59 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 06:18:17 AM
Wait a minute.

We're applying consent to a video game?

Here's a better way to put it. When you pay the store for the game you acknowledge and accept everything than can/would happen. Since you are literally buying the game.
Except that's retarded.

Except it isn't.

Overthinking simple things like "am I consenting to a game mechanic?" Is just silly.

Batch · January 14, 2016, 06:32:55 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 06:31:26 AM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 14, 2016, 06:29:59 AM
Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 06:18:17 AM
Wait a minute.

We're applying consent to a video game?

Here's a better way to put it. When you pay the store for the game you acknowledge and accept everything than can/would happen. Since you are literally buying the game.
Except that's retarded.

Except it isn't.

Overthinking simple things like "am I consenting to a game mechanic?" Is just silly.

At the moment thats fine, but if they get much much more complex, there needs to be something more to this.

Verbatim · January 14, 2016, 06:33:58 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 06:31:26 AM

Except it isn't.

Overthinking simple things like "am I consenting to a game mechanic?" Is just silly.

But it isn't.

If I want to play an online game, I only want to play with people that I've given express permission to do so. If they don't have my consent, then they don't have the right to play the game with me. The end.

Games like Dark Souls violate this simple, basic ethical rule.

Batch · January 14, 2016, 06:34:49 AM

Quote from: Simseoh on January 14, 2016, 06:16:37 AM

I think you're overestimating the impact VR will have. The ability to rape has to be programmed in, just like right now. Only niche games will have rape in them, just like now.

Im talking about true VR, if we can interact with everything in everyway, like we can right now. You cant simply make someone not do something, instead you need to make consequences.

Verbatim · January 14, 2016, 06:38:56 AM

Well, okay, I can't blame Dark Souls for how people choose to behave online. It's not the game's fault, it's not the player's fault--it's the invader's fault for using such a shitheaded feature in the first place.

However, the game enables that type of behavior, so I have to levy some of the blame on the developers as well.

Batch · January 14, 2016, 06:42:38 AM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 14, 2016, 06:38:56 AM

Well, okay, I can't blame Dark Souls for how people choose to behave online. It's not the game's fault, it's not the player's fault--it's the invader's fault for using such a shitheaded feature in the first place.

However, the game enables that type of behavior, so I have to levy some of the blame on the developers as well.

Hell, people basically made hentai in Halo 3's forge mode, out of weapons. How was Bungie ever meant to anticipate that? It doesnt matter how, the players will always find a way to abuse something, somehow.

Oh · January 14, 2016, 06:45:13 AM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 14, 2016, 06:33:58 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 06:31:26 AM
Except it isn't.

Overthinking simple things like "am I consenting to a game mechanic?" Is just silly.
But it isn't.

If I want to play an online game, I only want to play with people that I've given express permission to do so. If they don't have my consent, then they don't have the right to play the game with me. The end.

Games like Dark Souls violate this simple, basic ethical rule.

Do you actually think like this?

Verbatim · January 14, 2016, 06:49:22 AM

Quote from: Simseoh on January 14, 2016, 06:45:13 AM

Do you actually think like this?

Yep. Really. I really, really do.

SO HARD TO BELIEVE HUH

LOLOLOLO

Oh · January 14, 2016, 06:50:15 AM

Quote from: Batch on January 14, 2016, 06:34:49 AM

Quote from: Simseoh on January 14, 2016, 06:16:37 AM
I think you're overestimating the impact VR will have. The ability to rape has to be programmed in, just like right now. Only niche games will have rape in them, just like now.
Im talking about true VR, if we can interact with everything in everyway, like we can right now. You cant simply make someone not do something, instead you need to make consequences.

I still think it will be similar to now. The more mainstream and popular VR worlds will prevent rape and other overly taboo actions through programming.

And then there will be the niche VR worlds where everything is allowed.

Oh · January 14, 2016, 06:52:47 AM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 14, 2016, 06:49:22 AM

Quote from: Simseoh on January 14, 2016, 06:45:13 AM
Do you actually think like this?
Yep. Really. I really, really do.

SO HARD TO BELIEVE HUH

LOLOLOLO

Is it not overly entitled to join a game where you can be matched with anyone, by design, and expect to matched with those only you consent with?

Play modes where you are given complete choice over who you play with. Or don't play it.

Pippen · January 14, 2016, 07:54:56 AM

Quote from: Fuddy Duddy II on January 14, 2016, 06:33:58 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 06:31:26 AM
Except it isn't.

Overthinking simple things like "am I consenting to a game mechanic?" Is just silly.
But it isn't.

If I want to play an online game, I only want to play with people that I've given express permission to do so. If they don't have my consent, then they don't have the right to play the game with me. The end.

Games like Dark Souls violate this simple, basic ethical rule.

You sound like an entitled brat.

Pippen · January 14, 2016, 08:07:19 AM

The whole goal of the Invasion system in Dark Souls 2 is so players have another challenge in the form of online play, it is literally called "invasion". I don't remember anyone ever consenting to someone invading their land. It makes zero sense for you to be able to "pick and choose" who invades you.
There is also NPC's who invade or come to your aid as well, it's not always online players.
Plus, they have the opposite to help you out during your time on Dark Souls 2. You can touch a sign on the ground and "pop!" A friend from another world comes to help you out. So it isn't all invading and killing eachother.

While i'll admit, there is a lot of assholes who exploit the system. However to hate the invasion system because you can't "consent" to it is rediculous.

Verbatim · January 14, 2016, 08:29:47 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 07:54:56 AM

You sound like an entitled brat.

What a great argument!

Verbatim · January 14, 2016, 08:31:33 AM

Quote from: Darth Pipsqueak on January 14, 2016, 08:07:19 AM

The whole goal of the Invasion system in Dark Souls 2 is so players have another challenge in the form of online play, it is literally called "invasion". I don't remember anyone ever consenting to someone invading their land. It makes zero sense for you to be able to "pick and choose" who invades you.

That just means that the entire concept of player invasion is flawed as fuck and should be destroyed.

Quote

There is also NPC's who invade or come to your aid as well, it's not always online players.

This is the only acceptable form of invasion. If there's already NPC invasions, there is NO NEED for player invasions. If someone wants to join your game, they should have to request it from you first. That's how it should work.

Quote

Plus, they have the opposite to help you out during your time on Dark Souls 2. You can touch a sign on the ground and "pop!" A friend from another world comes to help you out. So it isn't all invading and killing eachother.

Doesn't matter. There's still invasions, and that's bad.

Quote

rediculous.

*ridiculous

Dumbass.

Batch · January 14, 2016, 08:31:37 AM

Come on guys, we all have our opinions, lets just keep it civil. There's a lot to be talked about.

Verbatim · January 14, 2016, 08:33:15 AM

Quote from: Simseoh on January 14, 2016, 06:52:47 AM

Is it not overly entitled to join a game where you can be matched with anyone, by design, and expect to matched with those only you consent with?

There is absolutely nothing "entitled" about not wanting to play with other people when you're not fucking asking for it.

That's, like, the exact opposite of entitled.