Then they go one step beyond and remake every Metal Gear with Sutherland voicing both Snakes.

But really, I think Sutherland is more fitting for an older, grizzled, tired Big Boss, but I can't think of Metal Gear without Hayter. It just doesn't feel right.

because those are common dominant/recessive traits that are surprisingly common and carried by people but not displayed. Having 5 fingers is actually a recessive trait. The genes just outnumber other number of digits so that's why it's almost always passed on. Extra/missing digits is a common sign of inbreeding.  Tons of genetic disorders are recessive.

This is just shit I know from my cell biology and human genetics classes at college so I could be wrong I'm not claiming to be an expert. I would also take people proving him right or disproving him on the Internet with a grain of salt unless they're confirmed geneticists.

I'm just saying all dominant wouldn't simply result in a brown hair brown eye big muscle guy and all recessive wouldn't result in a blond hair blue eye big muscle guy

I guess considering they could pick and choose traits for the one "clone" they could just pick and choose for the other two as well.

Hmm. Well perhaps it's just a commentary on how superb Big Boss's genes really are...

I mean, nothing we've seen him do is all that great (in comparison to other characters, like Gray Fox or Raiden), so it would make a lot of sense that his genes would be the main reason he's known as "Legendary".

Good post, tho. I'll see what I can find out.

Then they go one step beyond and remake every Metal Gear with Sutherland voicing both Snakes.

It would surprise me if Kiefer would do it, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Hayter doesn't return.

But really, I think Sutherland is more fitting for an older, grizzled, tired Big Boss, but I can't think of Metal Gear without Hayter. It just doesn't feel right.

Couldn't agree more. Hayter never felt right as BB, he always felt right as Solid.

Quote from: Snake on July 28, 2015, 08:41:02 PM

Quote from: Plotmaster on July 28, 2015, 08:30:54 PM

Quote from: Snake on July 28, 2015, 05:14:48 PM

Solid got BB's dominant genes, Liquid got BB's recessive genes.

Other way around. Though it would be more accurate to say Liquid got the superior genes while Solid got the inferior genes, at least the ones that affect combat and soldierhood.

Erm. No, it isn't.

Solid got the dominant genes, Liquid got the recessive.

"I got the flawed, recessive genes!"

He says it like 1000 times in MGS.

We're just lead to believe that recessive=inferior, which isn't true. Liquid has the superior genes, they just happen to be recessive.

Listen to Ocelot after the credits. Liquid had the superior genes the whole time, but believed he had the inferior ones. Solid ended up beating him despite this because Metal Gear's main theme is that who you're designed to be isn't who you'll become.

Liquid's blond, yo.

Trust me on this homie. It's a common misconception that he was possessing the dominant genes.

Quote from: Plotmaster on July 28, 2015, 08:46:27 PM

Listen to Ocelot after the credits. Liquid had the dominant genes the whole time, but believed he had the recessive ones. Solid ended up beating him despite this because Metal Gear's main theme is that who you're designed to be isn't who you'll become.

Here's the transcript from the end of the game.

Quote

Yes. The inferior one was the winner after all. ...That's right.
           Until the very end, Liquid thought he was the inferior one. Yes,
           sir. I agree completely. It takes a well-balanced individual...
           such as yourself to rule the world.

There's nothing about recessive/dominant genes whatsoever... and we know that Solid is likely the dominant-possessing clone because he literally looks the exact same as BB. Not to mention, Liquid tells us all the time that he's the recessive-possessing clone.

Dominant =\= superior
Recessive =\= inferior

I obviously haven't played it or know the context but maybe they weren't talking about genetics and just that liquid literally thought he was inferior...

And like das and prehistoric (calling you snake might be confusing) solid has fucking brown hair and eyes and liquid is blond...

Fuck now I kinda want to play these

I obviously haven't played it or know the context but maybe they weren't talking about genetics and just that liquid literally thought he was inferior...

Yeah, Liquid thought the genes he possessed (recessive) were the inferior ones. Which was revealed to be false, so. . .

And like das and prehistoric (calling you snake might be confusing) solid has fucking brown hair and eyes and liquid is blond...

Blonde hair is an inherently recessive trait IIRC.

Fuck now I kinda want to play these

Do it. MGS1 can be emulated on any shitty laptop, I highly recommend it.

Quote from: Plotmaster on July 28, 2015, 09:18:21 PM

I changed that to 'superior' and 'inferior' after I reread what I wrote.

So then you agree with what I said, yes?

I noticed that Ocelot said 'inferior' and not 'recessive', and adjusted my statement accordingly.

Well I mean, we have pretty clear evidence that Liquid was the one with recessive genes. He literally says it multiple times without contradiction in any of the later games. I think that's pretty substantial.

He was told that by the Patriots, and the Patriots are full of shit.

Actually, I think Kojima genuinely believed that dominant = superior, recessive = inferior until somebody pointed out how genetics really works. I mean, why would a man who was given a great education under the equivalent of the Illuminati with an IQ of 180 not have a grasp of third grade biology?

I noticed that Ocelot said 'inferior' and not 'recessive', and adjusted my statement accordingly.

So you don't agree with me, then?

He was told that by the Patriots, and the Patriots are full of shit.

But we've not been given any reason to think they were lying. Simply saying, "well, you know, the Patriots usually lie, so they're probably lying here because why not?" It doesn't really make sense. If Kojima wanted us to know that Liquid had dominant genes, he would have told us that via any of the other games. Especially MGS4.

Actually, I think Kojima genuinely believed that dominant = superior, recessive = inferior until somebody pointed out how genetics really works. I mean, why would a man who was given a great education under the equivalent of the Illuminati with an IQ of 180 not have a grasp of third grade biology?

Well I don't think that Liquid thought that inherently, recessive=inferior. I just think that he was led to believe that his recessive genes = inferior.

Yeah I've got no response to that lol

don't know how they haven't retconned that

They lied to him by saying he was genetically inferior to Solid. Maybe they just made up some bullshit about recessive genes to explain why. The whole thing was a scheme to allow more control over him, and it worked.

I really don't think it's all that difficult. They wouldn't need to make up some bullshit about recessive genes -- they could just say that "your genes are recessive and inferior". It's not all the complex.

He implied that recessive genes in general were flawed, which obviously isn't true.

Where?

Maybe they just made up some bullshit about recessive genes to explain why.

They wouldn't need to make up some bullshit about recessive genes -- they could just say that "your genes are recessive and inferior".

That's...exactly what they told him.

That... isn't really bullshit, though. That's true. Liquid does have recessive genes. The only thing they potentially lied about was that they were inferior to the dominant genes.

They gave him a deliberately wrong education on basic biology. If they had given him a proper explanation of how genetics work, he wouldn't have had a problem with whatever genes he had, and they wouldn't have had anything to hold over him.

That's an awfully big assumption to make. I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy.

'I got all the flawed, recessive genes!'

Notice he didn't say that Big Boss's recessive genes, in particular, are flawed - just that recessive genes are flawed. Again, this ties into the deliberately bullshit education the Patriots gave him.

I don't really see how that implies anything other than that he was given flawed recessive genes. He's not saying ALL recessive genes are flawed.

That... isn't really bullshit, though. That's true. Liquid does have recessive genes. The only thing they potentially lied about was that they were inferior to the dominant genes.

Nothing 'potential' about it, they did lie about recessive genes being inferior to dominant genes.

There's a kind of logic to it, though, after some thought. Part of the point of Les Enfante Terrible, aside from having spare Bosses lying around in case the original left the Patriots, was to single out the genes that made Big Boss the greatest soldier, not just his genes in general, under the belief that it was his biology that made him who he is (the Next-Generation Special Forces being an extension of that idea). It's actually kinda sorta when you think about it logical that the Patriots would believe that Big Boss's dominant 'soldier genes', the ones that were displayed over his recessive, presumably not-soldier genes, made him such a badass.

They missed the point completely (and that's still a mind-bogglingly wrong interpretation of genetics), but then, this is the organization that thinks aborting children will make the rest grow stronger somehow.

As an aside, consider how Liquid and Big Boss died so quickly after being exposed to FoxDie, while Solid survived several years after exposure - perhaps the Boss's recessive genes were more resistant, which Solid had, but Liquid didn't, and Boss's were masked by his less resistant dominant genes? This is just a theory, mind you, but one that makes sense to me.

On the other hand, Liquid didn't have the slightest idea what he was talking about when he started ranting about genetics - it's quite possible that neither had just the dominant or just the recessive genes.

That's an awfully big assumption to make. I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy.

It's not an assumption at all. The entire first game was the result of the Patriots manipulating Liquid with his genes. They fed him some crap about recessive equaling inferior and watched him break down, culminating in the Shadow Moses Incident. It was all part of the Patriots' plot.

Sure, it could be a reasonable assumption to make on the Patriot's behalf. Not really sure what it has to do with anything, or if it has a factual basis from which it was built upon.

Liquid was genetically superior to Solid - he got the genes that made him a superior soldier, the genes that affected Big Boss's soldier traits, which would have been the dominant ones unless the majority of his traits were recessive.

To me, it all just seems like conjecture. Yeah, Solid could have the recessive genes, but the fact that the game's have never given us any reason to doubt Liquid's statement, there's absolutely no reason to think otherwise. It just feels like you're grasping at straws because it fits your argument :/

It makes more sense than 'oh wait Big Boss's hidden traits were actually better'. He proved he was superior to Snake at the end of MGS4, just as Liquid was superior to Snake in MGS1. Liquid was closer to him genetically, if the similar genetic codes and similar resistances to FoxDie are any hint. Every one of Solid's relatives were superior to him, which likely means they have a greater genetic resemblance to Big Boss than he.

It's an assumption to think that because the Patriots are "known liars", that Liquid actually has the dominant genes. I mean, they don't have to lie to him about having recessive genes, they could just say he has inferior genes. You're assuming that because the Patriots lie all the time, that that somehow means that Solid has the recessive genes.

If they're not lying, then they haven't any better idea how genetics work than Liquid. Their entire gig is deciding what people should and should not know based on how advantageous said manipulation is to them, and it makes little sense to take anything they've said at face value.

Here's how we know Solid has the dominant genes:

-he looks exactly like Big Boss

So does Liquid, barring the hair.

-we're told he was given the dominant genes, and that has never been contested -- not once

Liquid claimed Solid had the dominant genes, and his grasp of genetics is as reliable as a chimpanzee's. Solid didn't have a clue what he was talking about, and the only other person there was Meryl, who was unconscious. Liquid was the only one in the series to ever mention Solid having the dominant genes and himself having the recessive, and it's never brought up again.

Here's how we know Liquid has the recessive genes:

-green eyes

-dark skin tone

He spent enough time in the boiling Middle Eastern sun to change the color of his hair. He has a hell of a tan.

-we're told he was given the recessive genes, and that has never been contested -- not once

Again, only he said that, and he got that from people who were manipulating him from the beginning of his life. He isn't a credible source of information, nor are the Patriots.

Liquid was genetically superior to Solid - he got the genes that made him a superior soldier, the genes that affected Big Boss's soldier traits, which would have been the dominant ones unless the majority of his traits were recessive.

This very well could be the case. But we're never given any reason to think that. It's just something you've come up with.

It makes more sense than 'oh wait Big Boss's hidden traits were actually better'.

Not really, because what I said is based on what we know. What you're saying is based on interpretation and conjecture...

Every one of Solid's relatives were superior to him, which likely means they have a greater genetic resemblance to Big Boss than he.

This would make sense if Solid wasn't already superior to Big Boss. Saying that "Solid's relatives were all superior to him = closer resemblance to BB" doesn't make much sense when Solid > BB.

If they're not lying, then they haven't any better idea how genetics work than Liquid.

Not necessarily, because they wouldn't have to say that all "recessive genes = inferior". They could just say that Liquid's genes are recessive, and then lie about them being inferior. That would achieve the same thing as them lying about the whole thing. And with Liquid being the genius that he is, they potentially create a risk of him suspecting their plot. I'm sure Liquid would eventually find out that "all recessive genes = inferior" is a false statement.

If they simply said, "You were BB's son. You were given his recessive traits. The recessive traits happened to be inferior." Liquid would still have a reason to hate being "cursed", and the entire MGS plot would still go along according to plan. Again, this is an Occam's Razor situation. The less assumptions that can be made, the closer we are to the truth.

Their entire gig is deciding what people should and should not know based on how advantageous said manipulation is to them, and it makes little sense to take anything they've said at face value.

If that's the case then why would we believe anything they say? How do we know that Solid is BB's son? How do we know he's the inferior clone? We need to take the things they say as truth unless other evidence is provided. For which your claim the Liquid = dominant genes has none.

So does Liquid, barring the hair.

And the eyes. And the skin tone, which, I know, you go onto later. And you make a good point.

Liquid claimed Solid had the dominant genes, and his grasp of genetics is as reliable as a chimpanzee's.

Unfounded claim is unfounded. He has an IQ of 180, it's not unreasonable to assume his grasp on genetics is at least on our level of understanding.

Liquid was the only one in the series to ever mention Solid having the dominant genes and himself having the recessive, and it's never brought up again.

So? It's still the only evidence we have that Liquid = recessive and superior. Pair that with the fact that the games have never given us any reason to doubt the validity of Liquid's claim...

Daddy Snake has them too.

The Fox Engine has a hard time showing the true colour of objects, depeding on lighting. Remember when Ground Zeroes was first revealed, and everyone though BB had gray hair?



And if that isn't enough, look on the wiki. BB has blue eyes. C'mon man, that was a pretty bad argument and you know it.

He isn't a credible source of information, nor are the Patriots.

But Kojima is. If he wanted us to know that Solid has the recessive genes, he would have told us.


I'm not really quite sure why you're arguing this point, dude. It's pretty obvious that Solid was given the dominant genes, and Liquid the recessive. We're never given any reason to think otherwise, ever. In any of the games.