Explain the difference between renting, buying used, and pirating

Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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A common argument from pirates is that it's not stealing, because that person never intended to buy the game in the first place, therefore no sale was lost. Regardless of how dubious and absurd that premise is, let's take it a step further: when you rent a game, you also get to play the game without actually purchasing it. However, the publisher only receives payment for one copy of the game. I couldn't find any statistics about how often a single disc is rented one average. The exact same claim can be made about purchasing used games, except now the number of people playing the game from one disc is limited to two or three -- maybe highly successful games change hands more than that.

Minecraft is a good example because of the developer's tolerant stance on pirating: in 2014 the game passed 100M users, with roughly 14M copies sold. Today that number stands at 21M. It's one of the highest selling -- and most pirated -- games of all time. Assuming the # of users stayed at 100M (which is generous in the extreme, but it helps for the example), the ratio of purchases to pirated copies is 1:5. The game obviously can't be sold used on PC, but for console versions we'll use the completely fabricated estimate of 1:2, meaning the game store sold the game twice (once new, once used) resulting in two users from one disc. For rental versions, I don't think it's unfair to assume that the game could be rented more than five times. Summary:

Piracy: 1:5
Used: 1:2
Rental: 1: >5

So if piracy is arguably comparable to rentals (and almost certainly results in less copies distributed than both rentals and used sales combined), why is piracy seen as bad, and the others acceptable (and legal)? You do pay for rentals and used games, but publishers see none of that; is there even a difference between those two options and piracy, when all three result in a loss of sales to the publisher? What if piracy involved a nominal fee, such as $0.50 to download the game? Is the true issue that piracy allows everyone to play the game simultaneously, whereas rentals and used sales allow on one user per disc at a time?


 
Verbatim
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Well, first of all, piracy isn't seen as bad. Only weirdos like me think it's bad.

Anyway, my contention has always been that somebody should be getting paid for supplying the game. I don't care if it's the developers, the publishers, or the retailer. All of them provide one common service: providing me with a valuable product, and that to me is worth money.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 10:59:15 AM by Verbatim


 
 
Mr. Psychologist
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<.<
I look at it in a much simpler manner tbh

If you buy a game, you paid to play it.
If you rent a game, you paid to play it for a short time.
If you buy a used game, you still paid to play it but someone else paid to play it first.

If you steal it, you are paying nothing to play it and you are a god damn thieving dindu who deserves the gibbet rather than gibs.

I personally like the ''''b-b-b-b-b-b-ut i'm trying it out to see if i like it/can run it abubububub''''
Steam has done refunds for a while now, there is no excuse.


FatherlyNick - fuck putin | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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If you know, you know.
I think there is actually a clause in the EULA about pay for play and renting.
Basically, you are not permitted to rent out a game and if you do, you are breaching the eula.
So renting is as bad as piracy.


 
Verbatim
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I look at it in a much simpler manner tbh

If you buy a game, you paid to play it.
If you rent a game, you paid to play it for a short time.
If you buy a used game, you still paid to play it but someone else paid to play it first.

If you steal it, you are paying nothing to play it and you are a god damn thieving dindu who deserves the gibbet rather than gibs.

I personally like the ''''b-b-b-b-b-b-ut i'm trying it out to see if i like it/can run it abubububub''''
Steam has done refunds for a while now, there is no excuse.
This 100%, it really is that simple in my mind as well.

Demos also exist, as well as SystemRequirementsLab.com.


 
Verbatim
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I think there is actually a clause in the EULA about pay for play and renting.
Basically, you are not permitted to rent out a game and if you do, you are breaching the eula.
So renting is as bad as piracy.
Wow, I really doubt that.

edit:
Yeah, I'm not getting any results for that. Probably because renting has been a heavily commercialized facility of the industry for years and years, and if there were any sort of legal quandaries surrounding it whatsoever, I'd suspect they'd have been dealt with and put to rest by now.

Even then, strictly from a moral standpoint, I don't see how renting could possibly be considered as bad as piracy.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 11:17:52 AM by Verbatim


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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If you rent a game, you paid to play it for a short time.
If you buy a used game, you still paid to play it but someone else paid to play it first.

But you don't pay to play it; the publishers (and developers) get nothing from rentals or used sales. If you feel this way, how would you respond to my question about paying a nominal fee for a pirated copy? And at that point, how are rentals and used sales not worse than pirating, since those retailers get profit from selling the game, whereas people that upload copies of games make no money at all?

To be clear, I agree pretty much entirely with you; I'm trying to work this out in my own head, too.
All of them provide one common service: providing me with a valuable product, and that to me is worth money.
Same question.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 11:21:31 AM by Töqi


FatherlyNick - fuck putin | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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If you know, you know.
If you rent a game, you paid to play it for a short time.
If you buy a used game, you still paid to play it but someone else paid to play it first.

But you don't pay to play it; the publishers (and developers) get nothing from rentals or used sales. If you feel this way, how would you respond to my question about paying a nominal fee for a pirated copy?
Someone also had to buy a copy, so they could make a copy of it and distribute it out.


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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If you rent a game, you paid to play it for a short time.
If you buy a used game, you still paid to play it but someone else paid to play it first.

But you don't pay to play it; the publishers (and developers) get nothing from rentals or used sales. If you feel this way, how would you respond to my question about paying a nominal fee for a pirated copy?
Someone also had to buy a copy, so they could make a copy of it and distribute it out.
Yes, just like a store had to buy a copy to rent or sell new the first time. So is that initial purchase justification for pirated copies just like it is for rentals and used games?

Is the justification in the scale of the distribution, i.e., one purchased copy may be pirated thousands of times, whereas a single rental disc may only be used a handful of times? At that point, when does rental becoming piracy -- 20 times, 50, 100, etc.? What if a user buys a game, uploads it, and it's only downloaded once?
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 11:21:04 AM by Töqi


 
 
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challengerX
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Ian | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Signature goes here.
"It's not stealing if you're copying the game! :^)"

I fucking hate people that use this argument; intentionally playing word games to justify IP theft. I would have more respect for pirates if they just admitted that they don't want to pay for shit and are going to always pirate just because they want to. Trying to use moral arguments will always fail.


 
Verbatim
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But you don't pay to play it; the publishers (and developers) get nothing from rentals or used sales. If you feel this way, how would you respond to my question about paying a nominal fee for a pirated copy? And at that point, how are rentals and used sales not worse than pirating, since those retailers get profit from selling the game, whereas people that upload copies of games make no money at all?
Retail is a business, and like all business, you need a license to legally conduct it. I imagine this also applies to manufacturers. Does anyone have the right, ethical or legal, to "manufacture" (upload) copies of game software (because every download is essentially a new copy produced) and distribute them for free without any sort of licensing agreement? I don't think so--and if they do, they shouldn't.

Like I said before--I'm okay if the pub and devs don't make a profit as long as someone's palms are crossed with silver for the one copy, legally. The original copy was already paid for, just as Psy said, and now it's just trading hands, which is perfectly fine. Producing multiple copies without permit is probably the bigger issue.


 
Verbatim
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This is actually something I haven't thought of. Technically renting is worse than piracy.
But not in the least.


snurch | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
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I look at it in a much simpler manner tbh

If you buy a game, you paid to play it.
If you rent a game, you paid to play it for a short time.
If you buy a used game, you still paid to play it but someone else paid to play it first.

If you steal it, you are paying nothing to play it and you are a god damn thieving dindu who deserves the gibbet rather than gibs.

I personally like the ''''b-b-b-b-b-b-ut i'm trying it out to see if i like it/can run it abubububub''''
Steam has done refunds for a while now, there is no excuse.
This 100%, it really is that simple in my mind as well.

Demos also exist, as well as SystemRequirementsLab.com.
tbh systemrequirements lab is full of shit, youll run games at max it says you dont meet minimum requirements for and itll say you can max games with a toaster

i vouch for steam refunds though, especially if you use paypal you'll get the refund within an hour and two hours should be more than enough to see if the game works on your computer


 
Verbatim
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because that person never intended to buy the game in the first place, therefore no sale was lost. Regardless of how dubious and absurd that premise is
Why is that such an absurd premise? It holds true for pretty much everything I end up downloading.
Because it rather blithely misses the point, and that because "loss of sales" is not the more pertinent issue.

You don't have the right, ethically, to use any good or service that was intended to be paid for, if you indeed chose not to pay for it. It doesn't matter how you personally feel about that--whether you personally intend to pay for the product is irrelevant. You have to, regardless of how you feel.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 12:46:26 PM by Verbatim


 
Verbatim
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tbh systemrequirements lab is full of shit, youll run games at max it says you dont meet minimum requirements for and itll say you can max games with a toaster
Maybe there's a better website, I don't know. Not a PC gamer.


snurch | Heroic Unstoppable!
 
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tbh systemrequirements lab is full of shit, youll run games at max it says you dont meet minimum requirements for and itll say you can max games with a toaster
Maybe there's a better website, I don't know. Not a PC gamer.
well they still get to play the game for 2 hours before they decide if they should refund it, a lot of people do that


Turkey | Mythic Inconceivable!
 
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Like I said before--I'm okay if the pub and devs don't make a profit as long as someone's palms are crossed with silver for the one copy, legally. The original copy was already paid for, just as Psy said, and now it's just trading hands, which is perfectly fine. Producing multiple copies without permit is probably the bigger issue.
On the other hand, an incorporated business isn't a requirement to sell or trade things; Craigslist and eBay are two examples of private selling mediums that are perfectly legal. And if, as I asked in the OP, pirates paid some sort of nominal fee (or maybe not even nominal; what if alternatives to Steam sold cracked game keys for competitive prices, like $30 for new games), would that justify it? Is the simple act of a transaction enough to eliminate the moral issues?

I think the bigger issue here is that used sales and rentals involve a single copy trading hands (and a rental is more or less like a repeated used sale), rather than a pirated version being highly distributed. But there's just something off about retailers making money off the sale of used or rented games. Surely anyone that copied or distributed any other form of IP for profit would be smacked with a lawsuit.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 12:56:33 PM by Töqi


 
Verbatim
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Is the justification in the scale of the distribution, i.e., one purchased copy may be pirated thousands of times, whereas a single rental disc may only be used a handful of times? At that point, when does rental becoming piracy -- 20 times, 50, 100, etc.? What if a user buys a game, uploads it, and it's only downloaded once?
It never does, because it's still just one copy. 7 billion people could use that copy and it wouldn't be piracy, especially if it was paid for 7 billion times. Hyper-generalized example, but I think you know what I'm saying.

"What if a user buys a game, uploads it, and it's only downloaded once?"

Then that's an illegally reproduced copy, as I discussed earlier. Bad.


 
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Verbatim
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This is actually something I haven't thought of. Technically renting is worse than piracy.
But not in the least.
Why not?
I already explained above. Retailers are legally permitted to provide paid rental services.

Morally, why should I not be able to try out a game--or any product--before committing to a purchase?

It's consumer protection, if anything.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 01:10:17 PM by Verbatim


 
challengerX
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Verbatim
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On the other hand, an incorporated business isn't a requirement to sell or trade things; Craigslist and eBay are two examples of private selling mediums that are perfectly legal. And if, as I asked in the OP, pirates paid some sort of nominal fee (or maybe not even nominal; what if alternatives to Steam sold cracked game keys for competitive prices, like $30 for new games), would that justify it? Is the simple act of a transaction enough to eliminate the moral issues?

I think the bigger issue here is that used sales and rentals involve a single copy trading hands (and a rental is more or less like a repeated used sale), rather than a pirated version being highly distributed. But there's just something off about retailers making money off the sale of used or rented games. Surely anyone that copied or distributed any other form of IP for profit would be smacked with a lawsuit.
Well, do you think they should be smacked with a lawsuit? I think that seems a little predatory--I think maintaining a large collection or library of legally acquired games is a fair and honest business, and I don't necessarily believe in game publishers making double revenue for one singular copy of a game that was already paid for, either.

You bring up a good point with the Craigslist thing, though, and I'm reading a little bit about that now. Obviously, it shouldn't be illegal for private individuals to sell and trade shit with each other, which is why I draw the line at unlawful reproduction.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 01:52:48 PM by Verbatim


 
Verbatim
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This is actually something I haven't thought of. Technically renting is worse than piracy.
But not in the least.
Why not?
I already explained above. Retailers are legally permitted to provide paid rental services.

Morally, why should I not be able to try out a game--or any product--before committing to a purchase?

It's consumer protection, if anything.
morally the pirates are in the right
morally you can suck my meatus


Thrasher | Ascended Posting Riot
 
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I think it boils down to two groups: buying and the rest. With buying you are directly supporting the creator. With renting, buying used, and pirating any money involved doesn't go directly to the creator. That's why EA had the online pass system for people who bought new copies only. The money instead went to Gamestop, EB, etc.


 
 
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Verbatim
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Is it ethically wrong?
Definitely.
Quote
Is it ethically wrong for us to sit on our asses and play video games or banter on a forum when we could be spending that time and energy on feeding the homeless, raising money for charity or helping others in need? Maybe.
Definitely.

The argument from "everyone else does it, too" (which your use of the word "maybe" weakly hinges upon) does not suddenly make these things okay, even though the notion gives you personal comfort. Objectively, both of these things (piracy & overall negligence) are morally execrable and no reasonable person denies it.

The difference is that I do one less morally execrable thing than you do, and maybe you should envy that.
Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 03:00:52 PM by Verbatim


 
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You will find out who you are not a thousand times, before you ever discover who you are. I hope you find peace in yourself and learn to love instead of hate.
Businesses that rent out games probably have a license or something so they're authorised to be providing that kind of service, renting from said business is therefore no problem.


 
 
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Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 03:16:19 PM by Flee