Dark Souls is easily one of the best games of all time.

challengerX · December 06, 2015, 04:57:25 PM

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Jono · December 06, 2015, 04:57:54 PM

Its also one of the most boring games of all time :^)

Flee · December 06, 2015, 05:02:58 PM

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Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 05:15:33 PM

People who like Dark Souls should be enslaved and beaten on Wednesdays.

Tsirist · December 06, 2015, 05:21:13 PM

this thread will be as a beacon of light to a certain
eggsalad

Kiwicake · December 06, 2015, 05:24:04 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 05:15:33 PM

People who like Dark Souls should be enslaved and beaten on Wednesdays.

Only Wednesdays?

challengerX · December 06, 2015, 05:26:39 PM

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Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 05:27:46 PM

Quote from: Fruitcake on December 06, 2015, 05:24:04 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
People who like Dark Souls should be enslaved and beaten on Wednesdays.
Only Wednesdays?

Builds up some dread every week, rather than growing complacent of daily whippings.

Ásgeirr · December 06, 2015, 06:05:16 PM

T6 · December 06, 2015, 06:22:27 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 05:15:33 PM

People who like Dark Souls should be enslaved and beaten on Wednesdays.

But thats my 6 hour college day

True Turquoise · December 06, 2015, 06:23:24 PM

Quote from: I slam Islam on December 06, 2015, 05:26:39 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 05:15:33 PM
People who like Dark Souls should be enslaved and beaten on Wednesdays.
Tru's sister can beat my meat any time
Quote from: True Turquoise on December 06, 2015, 11:47:16 AM

Anonymous (User Deleted) · December 06, 2015, 06:29:06 PM

TBH, in-between its seamless multiplayer integration/blending of the lines between single and multiplayer experiences, careful drips of lore, and a canonical, not-immersion-breaking explanation and demonstration for character death and rebirth, Dark Souls is one of the best games of last-gen. It's one of those titles that'll be talked about for a long time, and rightly so. It raises the bar for video games in many low-key ways that are sure to become recurring conventions in years to come. Most games haven't done these things, but they really should.

Stuff like 'restarting from a checkpoint when you die' doesn't really make for a coherent narrative experience without some sort of explanation, such as a time loop. It's a doofy thing to say, but Dark Souls has advanced video games as an art form.

Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 06:32:11 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 06:29:06 PM

TBH, in-between its seamless multiplayer integration/blending of the lines between single and multiplayer experiences, careful drips of lore, and a canonical, not-immersion-breaking explanation and demonstration for character death and rebirth, Dark Souls is one of the best games of last-gen. It's one of those titles that'll be talked about for a long time, and rightly so. It raises the bar for video games in many low-key ways that are sure to become recurring conventions in years to come. Most games haven't done these things, but they really should.

Stuff like 'restarting from a checkpoint when you die' doesn't really make for a coherent narrative experience without some sort of explanation, such as a time loop. It's a doofy thing to say, but Dark Souls has advanced video games as an art form.

lmao

Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 06:33:24 PM

Maybe I should skip out on the Dark Souls playthrough when I make it there.

I'm just gonna find reasons to hate it. Which would be fun itself, but people would probably bitch.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · December 06, 2015, 06:35:42 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 06:32:11 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 06:29:06 PM
TBH, in-between its seamless multiplayer integration/blending of the lines between single and multiplayer experiences, careful drips of lore, and a canonical, not-immersion-breaking explanation and demonstration for character death and rebirth, Dark Souls is one of the best games of last-gen. It's one of those titles that'll be talked about for a long time, and rightly so. It raises the bar for video games in many low-key ways that are sure to become recurring conventions in years to come. Most games haven't done these things, but they really should.

Stuff like 'restarting from a checkpoint when you die' doesn't really make for a coherent narrative experience without some sort of explanation, such as a time loop. It's a doofy thing to say, but Dark Souls has advanced video games as an art form.
lmao

Okay, Mr. "Virtual Boy is objectively better than Xbox 360"

Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 06:37:11 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 06:35:42 PM

Okay, Mr. "Virtual Boy is objectively better than Xbox 360"

I only said that to get a reaction, but the Virtual Boy really isn't that fucking bad.

But yeah no, you're vastly overrating Dark Souls there.

The ability to mislead and invade other players, just to fuck them over, just shouldn't be a thing in any game, ever.
And if you like that, then you have questionable ethics, and you should reevaluate them.

Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 06:44:29 PM

I mean.

You're citing the fact that it canonizes player deaths as a reason for it being one of the best games ever.

You're reaching. Really really hard.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · December 06, 2015, 06:50:02 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 06:37:11 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 06:35:42 PM
Okay, Mr. "Virtual Boy is objectively better than Xbox 360"
I only said that to get a reaction, but the Virtual Boy really isn't that fucking bad.

But yeah no, you're vastly overrating Dark Souls there.

Well, let's see:

Watch_Dogs has player invasions that are seamless for the invadee
MGS V has player invasions, though not seamless for some reason
Journey has seamless solo/co-op
Halo 4 and 5 frame 'player death' as taking place inside a simulator, at least for the multiplayer, although the idea could be vastly expanded upon
The Last of Us gives drips of story details as the game progresses, although this is arguably more of a general trend than something that could be attributed to DS
Witcher 3 (undisputed GOTY) had combat greatly inspired by Dark Souls

And that's in just, like, 4 years.

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 06:44:29 PM

I mean.

You're citing the fact that it canonizes player deaths as a reason for it being one of the best games ever.

You're reaching. Really really hard.

>wants strict rule enforcement
>double posts anyway

That's just part of the argument. However, 'coherency' is basically a requirement for any artistically valid narrative.

Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 06:58:24 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 06:50:02 PM

Watch_Dogs has player invasions that are seamless for the invadee
MGS V has player invasions, though not seamless for some reason

Player invasions are a negative aspect anyway. It's one of the worst aspects your game can have.

Quote

Journey has seamless solo/co-op

Dark Souls did not invent this. If Dark Souls was never made, another game would've had it instead, guaranteed.

Quote

Halo 4 and 5 frame 'player death' as taking place inside a simulator, at least for the multiplayer, although the idea could be vastly expanded upon

why do you care so much about this "player death" shit

and how do you KNOW it was inspired by dark souls

Quote

The Last of Us gives drips of story details as the game progresses, although this is arguably more of a general trend than something that could be attributed to DS

Then why mention it?

Quote

Witcher 3 (undisputed GOTY) had combat greatly inspired by Dark Souls

Well, whatever. That's one.

Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 06:59:50 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 06:50:02 PM

>wants strict rule enforcement
>double posts anyway

Double posting isn't against the rules. Never was. I always double post--it's not a big deal. Stay on topic.

Quote

That's just part of the argument. However, 'coherency' is basically a requirement for any artistically valid narrative.

It's not even worthy of mention. It's minutiae. A piece of trivia. You dedicated two sentences to it in your post.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · December 06, 2015, 07:08:56 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 06:58:24 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 06:50:02 PM
Watch_Dogs has player invasions that are seamless for the invadee
MGS V has player invasions, though not seamless for some reason
Player invasions are a negative aspect anyway. It's one of the worst aspects your game can have.
Quote
Journey has seamless solo/co-op
Dark Souls did not invent this. If Dark Souls was never made, another game would've had it instead, guaranteed.
Quote
Halo 4 and 5 frame 'player death' as taking place inside a simulator, at least for the multiplayer, although the idea could be vastly expanded upon
why do you care so much about this "player death" shit

and how do you KNOW it was inspired by dark souls
Quote
The Last of Us gives drips of story details as the game progresses, although this is arguably more of a general trend than something that could be attributed to DS
Then why mention it?
Quote
Witcher 3 (undisputed GOTY) had combat greatly inspired by Dark Souls
Well, whatever. That's one.

Well, I mean, even though Dark Souls may not have necessarily been the first to feature some of these ideas, it did start at least a few trends and affected games that are more mainstream to follow suit.

RE: seamless solo/co-op, I never understood the argument that 'well it's not a big deal in this case, because something else would have come around and done the same thing and made it popular.' The fact is, they didn't.

Why I'm so hung up on 'player death explanations' is that no other storytelling medium lets itself get away with unexplained 'resets' within the same continuity and story because the narrative didn't go the way the storyteller wanted. I think more games should care about maintaining suspension of disbelief and immersion in general.

challengerX · December 06, 2015, 07:17:26 PM

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Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 07:18:59 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 07:08:56 PM

Well, I mean, even though Dark Souls may not have necessarily been the first to feature some of these ideas, it did start at least a few trends and affected games that are more mainstream to follow suit.

RE: seamless solo/co-op, I never understood the argument that 'well it's not a big deal in this case, because something else would have come around and done the same thing and made it popular.' The fact is, they didn't.

Why I'm so hung up on 'player death explanations' is that no other storytelling medium lets itself get away with unexplained 'resets' within the same continuity and story because the narrative didn't go the way the storyteller wanted. I think more games should care about maintaining suspension of disbelief and immersion in general.

I don't find trendsetting particularly impressive, or worthy of adulation. Especially if the trends are bad.

The point of the "something else would have come around" argument is just to point out that Dark Souls isn't special. Sure--maybe they pulled it off first. Who cares? It's not a competition--or at least, it shouldn't be.

The death explanation thing is cool and all, but I just wouldn't consider it a great selling point. It's not important--it's a small detail, and most people don't give a fuck (because why should they). You can cite it as a positive trait all you want, but if you're gonna tout the game has one of the greatest of all time, I think you need something a little bit more substantial than that. That's all I'm saying.

Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 07:19:26 PM

Quote from: I slam Islam on December 06, 2015, 07:17:26 PM

Dark Souls has inspired many developers. It's really one of the best games ever made.

Nobody cares about the opinion of some guy who couldn't beat the tutorial.

I refused to beat the tutorial, because the game was just that much of an insult.

challengerX · December 06, 2015, 07:34:34 PM

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Verbatim · December 06, 2015, 07:36:10 PM

Quote from: I slam Islam on December 06, 2015, 07:34:34 PM

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 07:19:26 PM
Quote from: I slam Islam on December 06, 2015, 07:17:26 PM
Dark Souls has inspired many developers. It's really one of the best games ever made.

Nobody cares about the opinion of some guy who couldn't beat the tutorial.
I refused to beat the tutorial, because the game was just that much of an insult.
You just suck at Dark Souls. What's the big deal?

I suck at tolerating a game that allows you to fuck over other players who are just minding their own business.

Onion · December 06, 2015, 07:37:56 PM

I remember having the same opinion as Verb in my first hour, but now it remains as one of my favourite games of all time.

Spoiler

Though Bloodborne was more fluid and had arguably better lore, bosses and matchmaking.

Casper · December 06, 2015, 07:48:50 PM

I love Dark Souls, I just wish they had more time to finish the game after the Lord Vessel. Namely Lost Izalith.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · December 06, 2015, 08:06:08 PM

Beware, long post ahead.

>.>

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 06:59:50 PM

It's not even worthy of mention. It's minutiae. A piece of trivia. You dedicated two sentences to it in your post.

You're right, I should expand on that.

It's important for all stories to maintain a 'suspension of disbelief', where the rules of the world are explained to a reasonable satisfaction of the reader. A story can be fantastical, but it also needs to be somehow relatable to the audience with at least some basis in reality. If at any moment, because of a misstep (an intentional action doesn't count) on behalf of the storyteller, the audience is reminded that they're watching a movie, or reading a book, or playing a video game, the suspension of disbelief is ruined, and the storyteller has failed.

Even the more 'gamey' games like the Mario series attempt some sort of suspension of disbelief. Super Mario 64 has the 'camera' explained away by a mostly-unseen character recording the events as they're happening; Super Mario Bros. 3 frames itself as a stage play. 64 shows Mario get thrown out of the painting when he 'dies'; SMB3 'death' is like the actor flubbing their stunts. There's also a shit-ton of craftsmanship that goes into the 'art' of making something fun. Not just the graphics or music, but everything else, from the controls, to the physics, to the level design, to anything that makes up that game. (But they're not really narrative experiences, which I'll get to in sec.)

One can learn some of the necessary programming skills from school or a book, but one can only really be good at making a game through experience, and thus trial and error. Everyone's first game goes through various iterations before settling on the one that 'works.'

More recent games like Dark Souls ditch 'gamey' conventions like a 'score' or 'levels'. A lot of them try to ditch loading screens entirely, aside from the initial loading screen when starting the game. They're more like films, where each scene flows into the next without interruption. There's more that's required to sell that sort of experience; the player not dying is the best way to keep their mind engaged, but there's still the problem of dying and restarting going completely unexplained.

It's especially disorienting to someone who's never played a game before, and expects the coherency of a novel or movie or play. They'd be confused upon restarting after death, because that doesn't make a lick of sense in the world that's been established. There is no explanation to tell this person other than "it's because it's a video game." Suspension of disbelief has been broken.

A game like Heavy Rain will have a character permanently dead without retries (mostly Fire Emblem too, if you're playing it that way). Dark Souls weaves death and undeathinto the main conflict of its story and lore. Returning to life at a checkpoint 'because you're cursed with undeath' is a much better explanation than 'it's a game.'

I mean, taken to extremes, even having a controller that exists outside of the story's world to control the character could break suspension of disbelief, but that goes beyond the scope of this argument.

Quote from: Verbatim on December 06, 2015, 07:18:59 PM

Quote from: Cup-O on December 06, 2015, 07:08:56 PM
Well, I mean, even though Dark Souls may not have necessarily been the first to feature some of these ideas, it did start at least a few trends and affected games that are more mainstream to follow suit.

RE: seamless solo/co-op, I never understood the argument that 'well it's not a big deal in this case, because something else would have come around and done the same thing and made it popular.' The fact is, they didn't.

Why I'm so hung up on 'player death explanations' is that no other storytelling medium lets itself get away with unexplained 'resets' within the same continuity and story because the narrative didn't go the way the storyteller wanted. I think more games should care about maintaining suspension of disbelief and immersion in general.
I don't find trendsetting particularly impressive, or worthy of adulation. Especially if the trends are bad.

The point of the "something else would have come around" argument is just to point out that Dark Souls isn't special. Sure--maybe they pulled it off first. Who cares? It's not a competition--or at least, it shouldn't be.

The death explanation thing is cool and all, but I just wouldn't consider it a great selling point. It's not important--it's a small detail, and most people don't give a fuck (because why should they). You can cite it as a positive trait all you want, but if you're gonna tout the game has one of the greatest of all time, I think you need something a little bit more substantial than that. That's all I'm saying.

I think these trends are alright. Seamless solo and multiplayer experiences fulfills the desire to have both, but without needing to segregate them behind a central menu screen. And it doesn't force the player to inexplicably switch between 'the Hero' and 'some inconsequential random who only exists in the multiplayer', because now they're both the Hero. It's all part of one continuous sequence that's also sufficiently explained in the story.

Yeah, I don't know about that part. It's subjective, I suppose. It's special to the people whom it influenced.

In the bigger picture, how Dark Souls handles death is admittedly not a big deal on its own, because like you said, most people really won't care. But for the folks who do care, I'd say it's a small but important detail.

~~~

*whew* But all of that said, I don't really like the idea of games as art. They're often emotionally shallow experiences that rarely ever try to develop their characters sufficiently. Games mostly just exist to fulfill some sort of basic satisfaction. There's rarely any 'food for thought', rarely anything deeper than the surface. In many games like Dark Souls, I really don't have any reason to give one shit about the fate of the protagonist. Instead, there's just a big world to explore, and stuff to fight on the way there.

There's nothing in video games that has anything close to the emotional depth or artistry or validity of something like The Godfather or the Mona Lisa.

Dark Souls, by giving a rational explanation for death and repetition, inches video games just a tiny bit closer to what can be called 'art.' But there's still a very, very long way to go.

Anonymous (User Deleted) · December 06, 2015, 08:08:54 PM

so tl;dr I guess what I'm saying is, for using a medium that calls itself art but doesn't actually approach anything close to it, Dark Souls raises the bar for video games where the bar for games as art is still miles away