First of all, I appreciate the unnecessary thoroughness of your post. You clearly put a lot of effort into it. That said, I'm not trying to argue the game isn't dark, just that it's been overstated in my opinion. I don't want to disrespect your effort by responding sentence by sentence (because I don't disagree with it; I noticed and enjoyed everything you mentioned). Quite a bit of the darker elements take place in the first three-day cycle, in which you get back your ocarina, your horse (well, I saw her safe and sound in the ranch), and your body. The mask salesman doesn't turn out to be an evil guy, he's just an overtly creepy guy with a neat story, and Skull Kid isn't even the villain.

The music is the strongest conveyor of mood in the game, and I do agree it's fantastic.

When I first played the game about a decade ago, I spent too long trying to find those dumb little kids playing hide 'n' seek, and wound up running out of time--and the resulting death scene really stuck with me. Really, pretty much everything about the first three-day cycle did--and I guess that's why I focused primarily on those events.

As for Skull Kid not being the villain, I think that kinda depends on your interpretation. Either the Skull Kid is being possessed by the soul of Majora himself, or the mask merely grants the Skull Kid immeasurable power and multiplies the Kid's already-dormant proclivities for mischief (which is why he had no friends to begin with; some more dark subject matter for ya)--that is to say, an evil version of himself; someone you might refer to as an antagonistic force. I dunno, it's sort of up in the air. Whether you call him a villain or what, Majora!Skull Kid is probably my favorite Zelda character, next to HMS.

'Upbeat' may be too strong of a word, but look at some of the things you do in the main storyline: you save a monkey who was trying to rescue a princess, have a goofy adventure with two villains from OoT, clean a swamp and return it to its normal, lush greenery, help a Goron hero's spirit rest peacefully, restore an entire Goron village to spring, sneak through a pirate fortress to save some Zora eggs who then hatch and write a song for you, save the spirit of a rock n roll Zora frontman and take his place in the band while having a bunch of fun jam sessions with them, clean up the ocean...the list goes on. All while playing what seems like dozens of fun mini-games.

Right, and you really can't have a Zelda game without lighthearted and goofball moments like these--it just never quite reaches Link's Awakening levels of silliness, if you've played that game before. I never denied MM has its happy moments, because it totally does; I just think, like I said, that they're overshadowed... Well, maybe not overshadowed, but the darker elements have always been at the forefront for me.

I think what that may boil down to are my own expectations. Nintendo is well-known for their wholesome, happy-go-lucky, fun-for-the-whole-family games with ultra-brite colors, characters who simply don't know how to frown, and idyllic settings rivaled only by scenes in Lisa Frank coloring books. So when they take a route that's even somewhat off-kilter, the effect gets amplified tenfold--at least for me. It's like having your grandmother hand you a lollipop before leading you onto the bus to school--and as you're waving goodbye to her, you see her through the kitchen window, flipping you the bird as she nonchalantly slams a 40oz or some shit. That's kinda what playing a "dark" Nintendo game is like for me.

Ultimately, the game is about making people happy in a shitty world. That's basically the Happy Mask Salesman's dream--that's why he's the Happy Mask Salesman. He sells masks to weary/miserable/hurting people to help put smiles on their faces--even if it's just a silly mask. He's like the apothecary to all of Termina's woes, and Link is his unlikely assistant.

But yeah, no matter what you think of the game's tone, I'm glad we can both agree at least that the game is beautiful either way. Truly one-of-a-kind.

Sure, Link's a kid, but he's the hero of time, who already saved Hyrule from Ganondorf and lived as an adult (and don't forget the OoT opens with a vision of Hyrule burning and Ganondorf chasing a young girl, then the death of Link's parent figure, and soon after the game pulls the rug out from under the player by showing Hyrule decimated after we believed we'd saved it; Zelda games have always been pretty dark under scrutiny). I appreciate the darker themes, but I don't feel that overwhelming dread you seem to while playing. I can fix everything by going back in time.

Well, you neutralize everything. Personally, the more I got to know the townsfolk--I know you weren't really impressed with anybody, but I happened to care about everyone--the more anxious I was about resetting the cycle, because I knew that, in doing so, I'd be undoing all of the nice things I did for everybody. It felt good to have the moon further back in the sky, but I still felt a pang of regret whenever I go back.

Weirdly enough, I do feel that about Wind Waker. The idea of Hyrule being completely underwater, frozen in time, and seeing the races changed and adapted to their bleak, island-hopping life is really depressing.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I don't quite get that as much, simply because the Great Flood is essentially ancient history, and I'm too busy being uplifted by the Great Sea theme to get the sads over anything.

It's important that you point out Dark Souls, since I think the two series are actually very similar. After playing Bloodborne again recently, MM feels very familiar and almost like a companion game, especially with the cyclical story elements and the symbolism of the moon.

I'm glad you agree--a lot of people tend to give me weird e-looks when I compare the two franchises.

Getting back to MM, though--Good luck on 100% completion. That's something I actually achieved twice, once for the N64 version (it's actually a GameCube port, but whatever) and again for the 3DS version. I'm not sure which one you're playing through.

You don't need a guide, to be honest--I only needed to look up 3 things (all of them heart pieces), and I could've worked them all out on my own. Getting all the Stray Fairies without a guide is a pretty daunting task, but it's doable--just equip your Great Fairy mask and think outside the box when you need to.

I refuse to pre-order games but BOTW seems to be sold out everywhere

hmm

I'm at the door to the stone tower. Everything I've heard about this dungeon is bad; is it really that awful?

You either love it or hate it.

I thought it was awesome, but there's a specific ocarina song you'll be hearing ad nauseam.

SPLEEEEEEEEERSH

Quote from: Töqi on February 19, 2017, 06:08:19 PM

Okay, so this dungeon is cool as hell. Maybe one of my favorites in the series. It's surprisingly linear, so I'm not getting lost like in OoT's water temple, but it's basically just room after room of puzzles for the couple new items you get just prior. And all of the fairies I've found are in chests, so there's no way to miss them unless I don't complete a puzzle.

Nice, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I really don't understand why it's so controversial.

At this point, you should have all the masks by now, right?

I'm at 100% completion, working my way through the moon right now. Were you referring to the Kufei quest earlier? That was a lot of fun. I actually did most of it early on in the game, but couldn't figure out what to do when it goes to Ikana Canyon.

I really regret using the fierce deity mask, since it turned the last fight into an easy 30 seconds. I thought I was supposed to use it, like the giant's mask. I think I'll go back through and avoid it to actually experience the real boss fight.

Overall, fantastic game and ending. I really like seeing the side quests represented in the credits. I still think the main plot is pretty weak, but all the different stories and characters on the side make up for it greatly. It felt really experimental and while I do feel it had a surplus of one-off gimmicks rather than a few solid, core gameplay mechanics, it was a successful Zelda game amd a very good sequel to Ocarina, rather than an attempt to copy its formula. BotW seems to have a lot of those experimental elements in its gameplay, so I'm hoping they turn out polished and relevant throughout the game, with a great story.

Quote from: Töqi on February 20, 2017, 04:08:31 PM

I really regret using the fierce deity mask, since it turned the last fight into an easy 30 seconds. I thought I was supposed to use it, like the giant's mask. I think I'll go back through and avoid it to actually experience the real boss fight.

Overall, fantastic game and ending. I really like seeing the side quests represented in the credits. I still think the main plot is pretty weak, but all the different stories and characters on the side make up for it greatly.

YEAH, I was gonna warn you not to use it, because it's really just meant to be a fun power trip thing. I used it my first time, too, but I didn't regret it at all, because after all the shit I put myself through to get it, I felt like I earned it. That, and the Fierce Deity is just so fucking cool and I wanted to see him in action.

Needless to say, he's a lot tougher without it, and you can access Majora at any point now anyway. No big deal.

Congrats either way--you just played through a classic. Are there any other games in the series you feel like finishing?

I stopped Spirit Tracks almost immediately upon starting it, but supposedly it's one of the best. I also need to pick up Phantom Hourglass.

Oh, and I was surprised by how difficult it was for me to give up all those masks. Fuck those kids for making me fork over my entire collection.

YouTube

Having given Skyward Sword multiple tries over the course of its release, I can confidently say that I simply cannot enjoy playing it. Even if BotW ends up being disappointing in any way, it'll still be better than SS. I think it'll break the cycle.

The cycle is kind of a fake meme anyway.

I just think that's every series' fanbase in a nutshell tbh

It takes a new release for them to praise an earlier title's strengths.

When Halo 4 came out people started talking about how they missed Reach (somehow) and now some cunts on bungie.net are trying to shill for Halo 4's MP claiming it's better than 5.


That said, I can't see myself personally preferring SS over BotW from what we've been shown.   

i've been watching a lp of skyward sword, and it's made me wanna play the game again

it does have it's faults but i think i like it more than i hate it... i think lol

have you guys ever done a challenge in the games?

a while back i was tryna do the 3-heart challenge for every game, i had a checklist and i think i did almost every 3d one.

 i'm a bit proud of doing it on hero mode in ss

I wanna try to beat Zelda 1 without picking up the sword some day.

There is literally nothing wrong with preordering.

nintendo games, yeah sure

pretty much nothing else though

There's nothing wrong with preordering any game you're hyped for.

not when it gives developers incentive to cut content that otherwise would've been in the game anyway

Also, why is BoTW $152 on Amazon if I want to preorder? Does Nintendo plan on killing their own supply again?

Apparently these are some items